judecorp: (fin - just cold)
judecorp ([personal profile] judecorp) wrote2006-09-17 09:24 am
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Just apologize, dude. For REALZ.

Okay, this is annoying. It's a total pet peeve of mine. Or really, more than a pet peeve. It's something that I get really REALLY angry about.

Pope sorry for reaction to his remarks.

I don't care if you are the Pope or whoever, you do NOT apologize for someone else's reaction. You apologize for your mistake, or your action, or your decision, or YOUR anything. "Apologizing" for someone's reaction or feelings is not apologizing at all!

I would feel a lot better if the article said, "Pope sorry for words spoken during oration," or something like that. Instead we get:
"At this time I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims," the pope said Sunday.


Few things irritate me more than when someone "apologizes" to me saying, "I'm sorry you're hurt/sad/upset." I tend to snap back, "Please don't apologize for me." I just can't stand it.

Way to victim blame, Pope.
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[identity profile] 00solstice.livejournal.com 2006-09-17 03:08 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree. Such apologies tend to be passive-aggressive. He might as well have anonymously sent them a book on anger management.

[identity profile] prunesnprisms.livejournal.com 2006-09-17 03:17 pm (UTC)(link)
M and I just had a really good conversation about this (not about the fake apology). I also do not think his apology was adequate, and I thought ...well, a lot of stuff, which was crystallized during our debate (we do that a lot) but yeah. I mostly agree with you here.

My pet peeve with apologies is mainly centered around phrasing such as:

I'm sorry IF I blah blah.

Like, clearly if my feelings are hurt, you DID BLAH BLAH. Say, "I'm sorry THAT I blah blah" and it instantly sounds more sincere. Your peeve sounds a touch different, but I get it. =)

[identity profile] laserkitty.livejournal.com 2006-09-17 04:05 pm (UTC)(link)
Ha, I just read about this in the paper and was discussing it with Eric. Yeah - don't give a patronizing apology.

[identity profile] mightywombat.livejournal.com 2006-09-17 04:50 pm (UTC)(link)
I believe that, generally, people like the Pope don't get to make their own press release comments in situations like this. They have a team of peole who determine the best response for the situation and then run it past the figurehead. So, while the Pope may hvae been entirely contrite about whatever he said, his people may have put their own particular spin on it.

[identity profile] sudrin.livejournal.com 2006-09-17 05:05 pm (UTC)(link)
But the Pope is infallible!! He can't be sorry for what HE did, because what he does is always perfect!! ;-)

[identity profile] thinksnow.livejournal.com 2006-09-17 05:08 pm (UTC)(link)
In his speech on Tuesday, Benedict quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and an educated Persian on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"
"Way to blame the victim."

See, that's bullshit, though if he merely quoted a passage! Why should he be sorry that they got their nose bent out of shape? "I'm sorry that you are so incredibly thin-skinned that simply by my reading something, you feel the need to murder a nun, her bodyguard, and another hospital worker. I'm sorry that nobody can simply say words, or God/Allah/Diana-forbid, draw a cartoon(!) and your devout beliefs will leave you no other path than to declare bloody and violent retribution on anyone vaguely associated with anything kinda sorta to do with the originator."

There is a difference between apologizing for someone and genuinly feeling regret that they are offended by your actions. If you're not sorry for doing it, but are sorry that someone is hurt by it, what should you say?

[identity profile] eeka13.livejournal.com 2006-09-17 09:57 pm (UTC)(link)
Yeah, it's interesting...

I totally agree that it's offensive and belittling for someone to make a fake apology like that for something said publicly. Yes, either apologize or don't.

I do think that approach can be appropriate in a truly sincere (and personal) interaction. If someone says something to me that's sincere and that's based on them expressing their needs and feelings, and explains that they're really sorry I'm upset about what they've said, but that they feel they really needed to be genuine and express it, I'm going to appreciate the honesty (and that the person can share genuine feelings with me). But yeah, done flippantly, it's an obnoxious approach.

I once worked at a residential treatment program with a DBT-based milieu using the Boys Town social skills model. The kids were taught skills ranging from basic (greeting others, introducing oneself) up through pretty advanced ones (disagreeing appropriately, setting appropriate boundaries, giving criticism, accepting compliments).

The steps for "disagreeing appropriately" are something like acknowledging the person's position, apologizing that there's a disconnect/disagreement, stating your piece, offering some sort of steps toward a solution. When done more-or-less by this list, it's a HUGE improvement over most of these kids' tendencies to be flat-out argumentative and disruptive. Even if there's still some pretty obvious passive-aggressive stuff or narcissistic stuff going on, the interaction does at least look like an interaction you'd find among professionals in a workplace rather than thuggy children who are about to pounce on one another.

But yeah, I'd definitely see times that kids honestly thought they were doing it "right," but were clearly being flippant with it. I remember one teacher pointing out to a girl that a certain action was disrespectful of someone else and she might want to try doing X instead. The girl responded, repeatedly, to everything the teacher said with "I'm sorry you feel that way, but [really pathetic rationalization of her behaviors]..." So yeah, her little lip-service approach seemed actually quite a bit LESS respectful than just being flat-out argumentative.

[identity profile] colorbars.livejournal.com 2006-09-18 03:44 am (UTC)(link)
The Pope and the Catholic Church are still trying to pretend that they're living in 13th or 14th century. They're woefully out of touch with the modern world.

There was a study on the breakdown of religious affiliations done about 5 years ago. It's at http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html if anyone's interested.

[identity profile] volumeat11.livejournal.com 2006-09-18 11:42 am (UTC)(link)
"Well don't I feel like the fucking asshole."
-Jack Nicholson, "A Few Good Men"

So I've been out of the computer-type-loop for a solid week now, and only now do I see that Jen's taken a job out this-a-way. And you're still in Boston.

Last week, I created a bunch of mailing-type-pieces to be sent out tomorrow. One of them was to you and Jen in Dorchester. So it's addressed to the two of you. But, see, only you're there. So I'm sorry about that.

Now, because we freakin' love you two, if you'd like to use our pad as an occasional meeting place, or to crash here, or whatever, you guys are more than welcome to. We're about half-way between Boston and Amherst.

Okay. I don't feel like such an asshole anymore.

I hope all is going well (including Daveisms), and I'll talk to you soon.

[identity profile] vorpalbla.livejournal.com 2006-09-20 01:48 am (UTC)(link)
Indeed....
"I'm sorry that you're bleeding after I stabbed you."
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