That gay high school buzz

[judecorp]

Apparently, the Harvey Milk High School in New York City is all the news these days, because it's planning to expand and offer services to more students. Some of my LJ friends have been posting about it, mostly negative. There's been talk of "separate but equal" and other inherently negative catchphrases. And of course I have thoughts.

Did you know that when I was thinking of relocating to NYC, I had a phone interview with the Hetrick-Martin Institute? Heck, this could have been my job! (What was I thinking, deciding to stay in Columbus??!?!)

This is not a segregation situation, or a "separate but equal" means of education, for the primary reason that no one is forced to attend this school. It's an alternative school, like all of the other alternative schools that lump willing kids based on a certain academic subject or characteristic. The school has been operating two classrooms for quite some time now, and I believe the expansion will allow for 100 students.

100 students in the NYC school system. That's hardly a drop in the bucket.

Segregation would imply that all queer youth (or straight youth, or whatever youth) were being rounded up and forced to attend a different school. It would imply that the quality of education was in some way different than a traditional NYC public school. To be honest, how can you tell? There are so many different types of charter, alternative, and specialized public schools in NYC that there is no easy description for a "regular" school.

Let's face it - there is incredible variation among queer youth. Some of them are more well-adjusted than others. Some of them have more supportive families than others. Some of them have more social skills than others. Some of them blend into the mainstream better than others. Can you imagine being a transgender youth in a public school system? Can you say, "being eaten alive?" I can, especially when I think about a 14 (I think) year old I know, a biological male who prefers to present as female (and does a pretty convincing job!) and has for his entire life. Luckily, this young person has incredible parents, and a safe place to hang out - our youth drop-in center.

It's no secret that there is an elevated rate of suicide among queer young people. One of the contributing factors, it has been theorized, is a heightened sense of isolation. Falling into a common angst trap of adolescence, queer youth often feel as if they are the only queer people in the universe. They often do not have available role models or an available dating pool, among other things. They spend those years where the aim is to secure an identity in concealment and denial.

Having a safe social space is often enough to carry these youth through the high school years. But what about those students for whom queerness is more of an issue than others, or who may have more issues, problems, disabilities, or difficulties compounding a newfound queerness, or who may "stick out" more readily and thus be easier targets? To me, it's not terrible to offer these young people a safe space where they can concentrate on their education without worrying about potential slander, jeering, or violence. It's not terrible to allow a young person to use hir intellect to complete schoolwork rather than perpetually justify hir existence. If queer youth didn't need safe spaces, why would they be in such demand?

It's easy to try to make the leap between LGBT individuals and those of other minorities in society. And it's easier, I think, to consider previous (disastrous) attempts at segregated education fueled by racism rather than, for example, some successful Africentric education programs in inner cities. Those aren't "separate but equal" programs - they're established alternative programs designed with students in mind.

Please let's not be so quick to compare Segregation in Schools (ethnic segregation) with the expansion of the Harvey Milk School. It's like apples and oranges here, I promise. For example... remember that school in the South that held a "White Prom" and a "Black Prom"? Remember how shocking it was that so many of the students were in favor of it? Remember the bitter taste of racism in your mouth as you read about it, thought about it, conceived it?

Have you ever attended an alternative Prom for queer youth? Or if you're older than that, have you ever wanted to? Have you ever wanted the freedom to take the date of your choice, wear the formal outfit of your choice? Have you ever wanted the freedom to hold hands, sit, eat, dance, take photographs, share moments, and show intimacy without becoming a spectacle? Do we not celebrate The Other Prom in Columbus, laud its high attendence and safe atmosphere?

This is a 100-student school, people, and it is an /option/. For some students, it may be their ONLY option ensuring a safe, healthy education. LET IT GO. MAKE MORE.

Do I think that this underwrites dealing with homophobia and heterosexism in our society and our school systems? Of course not. There are a lot more than 100 queer kids in the United States. Are we enhancing the problem by placing the youth in a separate school? One look at that 14 year old I was talking about up there, and you'll see there's no "enhancing" required. I promise.

Comments

[doulamel.livejournal.com]

Seconded. Well said. :)

[yarnaddict.livejournal.com]

You've raised a /very/ good point, and one that I hadn't been considering (not that I had yet really formed an opinion on this issue). It's an option. That's a very, very important distinction to make.

Thanks, Jude, for yet again helping me /think/ about things before forming an opinion. =)

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Thank you, ma'am.

[mermil.livejournal.com]

I heartily agree. This isn't about segregation. It's about establishing a safe space for adolescents who, on top of the usual teenage confusion about who they are and what they want to be (cue the Brady Bunch music), are trying to figure out their sexuality without the usual pressures and expectations that another school would have. If those pressures didn't exist, then there wouldn't be a need for these schools, but the world is often a very rigid, narrow place. So make more of 'em, I say.

[murnkay.livejournal.com]

Wait ok. Wouldn't it make more sense to put the energy behind fixing the root problem instead of seperating them? Yes it's only 100 kids, but even you say "make more" so ignore the numbers for a second.

It isn't segregation ... not really. But it also doesn't sound good. I mean I'd rather work on fixing the fact that society fucks up these kids simply because they're gay instead of putting them somewhere else for a few years. Sad fact is they will come out of it and still have to cope with the bullshit and insanity. We need to fix that

As for it not being segregation ... use the same prom example again. We were shocked that not only did the white kids like the idea but that they could do it. But these kids are doing the same thing aren't they .. in a way?

I dunno Jude, I respect your views on this and am just trying to reason it out with myself, ya know?

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Yes, if there was some sort of corraling queer students into special schools, you can bet I'd be singing a different tune.

But really, what about those Performing Arts charter schools? (Stereotypes aside) Haven't those been a haven for queer youth in the past? What's the difference?

The difference is that someone has the 'audacity' to say /outright/ that this school delivers services to queer young people.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I work to fix the bigger, underlying problem /every day/. By allowing 100, or even 1000, students to go to an alternative school - how is that working /against/ the problem?

Forcing young people who clearly don't fit in, who are abused daily but are LEGALLY REQUIRED to attend the abuse - how does this help the problem? Isn't that like using the young people to fight the battle that the adults should be fighting?

Why would we be giving the responsibility to "change things" to the young people? Why would we use them as casualities in order to make a point? The point has been made already, dear - some schools are horrible places for some kids.

There should still be in-service programs to educate teachers and school staff about the issues faced by queer youth. There should still be world-wide movements designed to make our universe a more tolerant place. There should still be strong messages that abuse (verbal, physical) targetting certain populations of people is WRONG.

We may be, by doing this, sheltering these young people for a set number of hours a day. But we're not keeping them from society. We're not keeping them off the streets, out of the stores and churches, out of their homes. We're telling them that they can hang their "thick skin" at the door of their classroom and get their work done.

And in that time, in that time when we know they're safe, the rest of us had better be busting our asses to ensure that they'll continue to be safe the minute they leave school.

Don't worry. I have no intention of concluding my fight for social justice just because I have a building to put 100 kids in so they don't get beaten up from 8am to 3pm.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

People say that a long journey begins with a single step, and that maybe we should be working to fix the bigger problem rather than make little safe havens. Perhaps this is true to some degree...

but I think a long journey begins with a good /plan/. And /then/ you have to put your shoes on so you don't hurt your feet. And /then/ you take your first step.

[jost.livejournal.com]

When does providing a separate environment to make a student comfortable cross the line though? Try replacing every instance of "Gay" in the article with "Republican". Would it really be in the best interest of some young girl who believes in the Republican ideals to voluntarily put herself in a school that lets Republicans congregate in an environment where only other Republicans are surrounding her? Does this provide a valid, realistic social education to only interact with others that are like you and not with people who are polar opposites? How can conflict management be handled if we just allow people to segregate themselves into niche groups where they feel comfortable? I have no problem with the operative clause here being "gay" and more than I would have the operative clause being "black" or "women". I do have a problem with voluntary segregation being an effective practice to prepare the youth of our nation to interact in society. Remember, sweetheart, that voluntary segregation is still segregation. It still helps breed identities that are separate from others. This doesn't even take into account the inevitable situation where a straight student wants to attend school there for whatever reason and gets denied based on sexual orientation.....

[auntiesiannan.livejournal.com]

I'm glad that Hetrick-Martin is getting more funding. I think that the main focus of the school is not necessarily l/g/b/t youth, but l/g/b/t youth that have been targeted and harassed to a point where even with the intervention of "regular" school administration, they do not feel safe and its affecting their studies.

Also, some of the students at Harvey Milk in the past have been homeless. I remember about 10 years ago I was reading an article where a couple of kids would come to class after turning tricks for food money on the West Side Highway -- they were that determined to get their diplomas.

The option needs to be there. I'm glad that it will be there for more kids now.

[murnkay.livejournal.com]

Right.

Still, wouldn't it make more sense to edjucate the students in the schools and stop ALL the abuse, not just of gay kids but of everyone "different"? We can certainly do both, fine. But with money as stingy as it is if you had to chose one - which comes out on top?

See what I'm sayin? I dunno maybe I am making no sense. I'm not saying it is a bad idea, or a total idea or anything of the sort. I'm saying if I had to send the money one way or the other - I would rather use it to help stop all the various abuse and to edjucate all sorts of kids against random bullshit hate. If I had to choose. If not, sure go for as much as you can, by all means. Every bit helps somehow.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

We have schools so that band geeks can all go to school together, and schools so that science/math nerds can all go to school together - so what's the difference? We "segregate" education all the time in the United States. And that's not counting all of the private schools. (And HMHS is technically a private school, because while the families don't pay tuition, the funding comes solely from the HMI, at least right now.)

Last time I checked, there wasn't a mass of young people who were regularly getting abused and beaten up for being "Republican." And there aren't rules stopping kids from being "Republican" or taking a "Republican" date to a dance or school function. And I don't know any schools who have chosen to eliminate all after-school clubs rather than allow the presence of a "Republican" club.

Please, John. Try to see that this isn't an issue of "insert the word," because really, there's absolutely no comparison with your "Republican" example.

Does this provide a valid, realistic social education to only interact with others that are like you and not with people who are polar opposites?

Please tell me that you're not implying that all queer youth are exactly the same, and that they won't get any idea of "difference" at HMHS just because all of the kids identify as some sort of queer or questioning. After all, in my (Catholic) high school, there were no out queer people - so I assumed they were all straight. Heck, everyone assumed, especially the teachers - since same-sex dating and affection was frowned upon. Does that mean we were ALL THE SAME?

[smurfbrother.livejournal.com]

You just saved me the trouble of writing about the difference between segregation and providing options to people with different wants and needs.

Thanks!

[kat-chan.livejournal.com]

I see both what you're saying, and what murnkay is saying here. I've been feeling conflicted on this issue since last night, but I'll elaborate on that in my own comment.

I guess that one thing that I want to give you to chew on at the moment is this; what makes the 14-year old transgendered youth more important than a normatively-gendered, straight, geeky, thin, effeminate male classmate who is also subjected to ridicule and physical harassment? One would be eligible for this alternative school, and the other would still be subject to daily beatings.

[jost.livejournal.com]

I used Republican to illustrate the focus on the specific group. Everyone seems so caught up with this being for "gays" that they fail to see any other group could be place in there and the segregation would be the same. Schools that specifically target teaching toward Math or Music in their curriculum are targeting a field of study, not a target audience or a group of people with similar interests. Unless you can show that these students are attending a school that teaches "Gay Studies" then they are still isolating themselves, even if by choice, to an environment that does not provide a valid social education to interact with society as a whole. To use your example of "ALL THE SAME", that's precisely why I think this form of segregation schooling is a horrible idea. No, we are not all the same. And we never will be. But surrounding ourselves with people who are more like us than the rest of society will only hamper the efforts of interacting with the whole of society when you have to leave the proverbial nest. But if we insist on using gay and not-all-the-same as metaphors; let's cite this as an example: Not all the colors of the rainbow are the same. If we let all the blues pull out and go to just a blue rainbow, both the blues and the entire spectrum have suffered. Why not simply work to make all the colors work in harmony with each other instead of isolating themselves? Does this stand to reason that gay kids should situate themselves in an environment where they are surrounded only by other gays should prepare them to interact in a society where straight people outnumber gays? It would only seem logical that it presents a picture where the students coming from those schools would feel even more marginalized and separate from society as a whole.

[poopsmoothie.livejournal.com]

I still think it's a horrible idea. It reminds me of Liberia-- some of the people behind that WEREN'T racist; they sincerely thought that it would be to African-Americans' advantage to go back to their 'home', to be with their own kind, etc etc.

jost covered most of my other thoughts here.

[poopsmoothie.livejournal.com]

Oh, and it also opens up a whole can of worms as to whether homosexuality is just about sex, queer by birth or queer by choice, gay culture as a subset of American culture and/or its isolation from that, integration, homophobia among kids, and so on. Those things do need to be examined-- but it might be nice to examine them BEFORE we try a social experiment with kids.

[poopsmoothie.livejournal.com]

Also there's the whole bisexual 'living in two worlds' thing, forgot that.

[alikat774.livejournal.com]

For the most part, I agree with your post. I also agree with the devil's advocate Jost (although, not entirely- inserting the word "Republicans"? Absolutely ridiculous comparison). But, where does creating special schools draw the line? I realize it is an option, however, optional segregation can become just as demoralizing as forced segregation.
The bottom line is, it separates us (the glbt community) from the world. We will further be seen as separate and different, and the ostracizing may worsen. I am all for queer youth having safe havens (hell, I was one who did not have a safe haven outside of my home, so I can relate to how it is)- this is where I think our communities need to play a bigger role- the community centers, more glbt/straight alliances in high schools, etc. We need ALL of our youth to have safe havens, but by creating individual schools?

I do have a bone to pick with you, though- you don't want everyone to classify us as the "same"- all queers lumped into one. However, you do make a statement about "band geeks" and "math/science nerds". Perhaps you did not mean to group them, but that is how it comes across. I feel as though you are perpetuating stereotypes here. Exactly what you don't want others to do in regards to who you are. As you speak of the high rate of suicide among queer youths, consider the first line of your reply, and then consider what those "band geeks" and "math/science nerds" you refer to are feeling...suicidal? Some of them, I am quite sure. We ALL need to be cautious and supportive and protective of ALL our youth, all at once. Encompass everyone's uniqueness...are you encompassing these two groups you have mentioned?
Just a thought I'd throw out there.
And though you stated in your post that many of your friends' posts speak negatively of this topic, know that I am NOT speaking negatively, only out of sincere concern for the outcome, and for our entire community.

[rachelmichellek.livejournal.com]

My sister want to the creative and performing arts public high school here in Pittsburgh, for which you had to audition or present a portfolio of work during your 8th grade year. But towards the end of her years there, the school started beinging in homosexual students who had no interest in the arts curriculum, just because they felt the atmosphere would be easier for them, so they transferred them in. It's not that these students weren't welcomed, and they're right, the atmosphere at her school was definitely a more safe setting, but students were upset about the diverting of the theme and mission of the school.

[alikat774.livejournal.com]

Well said.
Very well said.
As a member of the glbt community, I would much rather see everyone working together, than pulling portions of our society out to have them work separately. Your rainbow/color removal analogy was priceless.

[kat-chan.livejournal.com]

I have to cut this in half, as LJ says it's too long for a comment...

As I had said in my other comment, I can totally understand both sides of this argument. Why? Well, being someone who spent the better part of her teen years trying hard to deny being TS while going through the hell of suburban "Breakfast Club"-era high school.

I'd go to school and admire the cheerleaders in their cute little outfits (back when they still didn't look like the total sluts that they do now). I'd go to the homecoming dance and wish that I could get away with wearing one of those big poofy dresses with the big-ass bow on the back. I'd feel all those conflicting thoughts of fear (of being found out...yeah, like I wasn't giving myself away in other ways!) and jealousy (of having to play a game that I didn't want to play, while everyone else could just be themselves).

One of my best friends throughout school was a girl who was VERY boyish looking, but she had a group of friends than included the high-school principal's daughter and the superintendent's daughter, so she was fairly well insulated from the insults of "is it a boy or a girl" that were whispered about her, even though I know she knew about them. At the same time, her parents were getting a divorce because her dad was gay. She'd never talk about her parents' split for exactly the reason why they were spliting. She had enough people calling her a "dyke" because she was a four-year, three-sport letter winner who won a nomination to the Air Force Academy.

(cont.)

[kat-chan.livejournal.com]

I was harassed pretty constantly in middle school because I was very effeminate. I was constantly in the principal's office for getting into fights because if I went outside after finishing my lunch, people would ambush me, surround me, and start pummelling me. I can still point out scars from some of these incidents, even 20 years later. My mom was called one day for clearance on my latest round of corporal punishment, and the principal asking my mom what was wrong with me that I was always getting into fights. Noone wanted to understand why. At least not until the day that I found a teacher I knew would get hysterical and mentioned suicide to her. After that, people started to realize what I was going through was not something I was causing. Too bad I never trusted the psychologist they had me talk to enough to them him about my TS feelings. *shrugs*

When the time for high school was drawing near, my mom wanted me to try and get into Western Reserve Academy, a nearby prep school. It would have required my getting a scholarship and taking a test, so she had to talk to me about the idea, rather than just packing me off. I told her that I didn't want to go to a private school, that I felt that it would have been like letting the kids who harassed me succeed in forcing me out. Besides, things were getting better with some of the more popular classmates, and that was trickling down, so I wasn't feeling as awful on a day-in, day-out basis.

I started high-school in fall of 1985 at the age of 13. I felt very odd and small when I first entered the school. One of my classes was a Western Civilization class that included a few seniors who needed that as one of their last credits for graduation. So I was in a class with people who were six years older than I was. I felt very small. But in the end, when I got my diploma, I had classmates come up to me and tell me that they respected me for what I had to put up with. And when I helped with getting the reunion organized, the girls that I was working with, some of whom were among those who harassed me, were telling me that they couldn't believe what I'd been put through. At the time I hadn't done name change or any of that, so noone really knows about my being TS, yet. But I'm sure it won't be a great shock when/if they find out, either.

Would I have been better off with a school like HMHS? Maybe. But I had a 3.5 average even when I was being harassed. My sixth grade teacher told my parents at one conference that he couldn't believe that I still wanted to come to school given what I was being put through. But I knew that school was a means to an end, and that it wasn't going to last forever, it was just something that I had to endure. And I did endure, as difficult as that could be at times.

And while you talk of performing arts and math/science schools for the other geeky kids who get harassed, those are really only an option in large inner-city school districts. In small suburban schools of 1000 students, there isn't the critical mass for such schools, and so the geeky straight kids end up being in the same lurch that the LGBT kids are. HMHS may be an option for the LGBT kids, but not for the straight kids, and I worry about them just as much. After all, can you imagine the anti-LGBT resentment that could build in a kid that doesn't have the option to get away from the harassment? The cry of "special rights"?

So I see both sides. I understand the need for "safe space". But the "safe space" argument is used by MWMF to keep the trans people on the outside of The Land, too. Where can we draw the line? Is there a clear, defined line to be draw that doesn't hurt someone in some way?

It's a far more complex issue than just saying "it's an option that's not being forced on someone". We have to examine who the option is available to, if we're creating "special rights" and if creating a "safe space" for 10% of the student body is more important than creating a "safe space" for ALL students.

It's thorny. I don't think that HMHS is a bad idea in theory. However, in the end, I think it is more problematic than it seems on the surface.

[jost.livejournal.com]

(although, not entirely- inserting the word "Republicans"? Absolutely ridiculous comparison)

I hope you can see it for the on-the-surface opposite nature of the specific case. Yes, there are gay Republicans, but statistically gay Republicans are a vast minority to both groups (gay and Republican). Thus, to focus the point of devil's advocate I picked what is stereotypically an opposite of the specific referenced party/group. I also chose it as a group that I know smurfchick does not find herself in alignment with to try and signify that a particular group of individuals can chose to cloister themselves from society no matter what their beliefs/practices/etc, including those that the very mention of their name instantly raises hackles to people with opposing beliefs. Had I said "left-handed people", I don't think it would have drawn such a sharp bite to my position even those the overriding premise would be virtually the same. I don't actually equate "being gay" with "aligning one's self with the Republican party". I think the remainder of my argument would prove that.

[murnkay.livejournal.com]

Thank you, exactly.