I remember skies reflecting in your eyes.

[judecorp]

Jennifer and I were talking yesterday about being asked out. I think it started because I was talking about my friend Melissa, and how she was always so frustrated because people were quick to label her "butch" and then would never ask her out. They would wait for her to do the asking, and since she was really shy and quiet, that didn't happen so much. Jen said that she had never been asked out.

(I'll save my butch/femme roles rant for another time.)

So I had to remind her that I asked her out at /least/ on our last birthday, if not before then. But I'm not sure that really counts. Anyway, I asked her out (in jest because we're not really dating anymore) for tonight, but she wouldn't give me any input about where to go - she told me to surprise her.

I leave this up to you.

[Poll #168804]

Thanks!

Comments

[doulamel.livejournal.com]

I'd love to discuss the butch/femme thing with you someday. Personally I don't see why people make such an issue of it. I had someone on my friends list who had to throw the fact that she's femme into every single post and I just couldn't take it anymore and removed her. I mean yes, we all look at the world differently, but I can't comprehend living my life in such a way. I'm me. You're you. Why is everyone so quick to label everyone else? We're all queer. We should stick together, not further segregate ourselves.

[kieron.livejournal.com]

In an ideal world there wouldn't be a need for fighting for your rights, you would have them....in our world, people - all people, as a group tend to have a "Pack" mentality. Seems most people wnat to belong and not be different an dit is very easy to make us and them, rather than us and us. I do it, you do it, everyone does it to some degree - whether it's in solidarity of being queer or in solidarity of being white or black or hispanic, etc. It's there.

While we all are taught to have pride in who we are and where we came from, there is the other edge of that sword and that pride turns to vanity and/or disdain for the "others". This is why we have labels for everyone and everything. This is why it is hardest for those who don't quite fit to fit anywhere. I mean, hell, look at what Bisexual people had to and still do have to go through in the Gay community. I only recently had my eyes really opened to what trans and non binary gender indentified people have to go though (hell that was a mouthful.)

I am who I am and no one is going to assume at first glance that I fit the "femme" stereotype....but I don't fit the "butch" one either - not enough to be comfortable in it or assumed as it. And it is our community and our brothers and sisters and inbetween siblings that label me just as much as they wish not to be labeled. Just as it is our society as a race that labels and pigeon holes to appease the masses.

Jude teases me for being a total wuss when it comes to scary movies or big nasty bugs - even though I did deal with the roaches we found in her old apartment! Damned if I do and damned if I don't....heh....there really is no winning this....at least not until people as a whole are strong enough and fearless enough to stop trying to fit and start trying to NOT fit anything but what feels right. Which is unlikely:)

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I think it goes beyond people lumping into groups. I mean, it doesn't usually happen that 'butches' stick with 'butches' or whatever... I think in a lot of ways it's how the individual chooses to identify herself. That's fine with me.

The problem, for me, is when someone external to that person begins extrapolating ideas about the person based on what she is wearing or what sort of presentation she is making. I hate that society (whether the larger society or just our little community) likes to ascribe roles and duties to people, and also likes to pretend it has people figured out. Why should it be assumed upon first glance at you that if you are seeing someone, she is very traditionally feminine? Why should it be assumed that you prefer to give pleasure rather than receive it? Why should it be assumed that you will do the asking, be forward?

And, to larger society, why should it be assumed that you "want to be a man," or that your partner "should just go get a real man if that's what she wants"? Sickening, really.

To me, it's less about how people identify, or how people see themselves. It's more about the assumptions made based on that presentation or identification.

Grrr.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I don't have a problem with someone choosing to identify herself as butch or femme or andro or whatever little thing her heart desires. I mean, there are some people who really do want to fit into a category called 'butch' or 'femmey-femme-femme' (as Steve would say), and that's cool.

What bothers me is when 'butch' and 'femme' aren't just about presentation, or even what may be done sexually, but when it becomes about /roles/. I mean, is it expected that I pursue someone, that I pay, that I open doors or whatever because I wear boys' clothes? That's ludicrous! Similarly, am I to assume that because someone is wearing makeup, she can't take care of herself?

To me, that's a) trying to mirror 1950s heterosexual society (why would we want to do that?), and b) fulfilling 'marriage roles' that I find equally reprehensible. It makes me just as disgusted to think that no one has ever asked Jen out as it is to think that there are all these girls growing up who like some boy or other and are waiting for HIM to ask HER out.

UGH!

[communista.livejournal.com]

I hope you find my poll contributions satisfactory.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

*giggle*

[communista.livejournal.com]

NAKIE POWER! I'm naked right now, and I"m getting fired!!

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Don't get fired!

[communista.livejournal.com]

*PARP*

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

?

[communista.livejournal.com]

I said, PARP! :P

[hope-persists.livejournal.com]

fuck butch and femme. join the legions of the fella-girly! :D

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I love being one of the birls!

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

butch-femme rant, huh?

*puts on heels*

Bring in on sista!

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

*chuckles* How did I know this would happen? :)

I should have been clearer in my description. My rant is more towards the way people (in the queer community and in larger society) ascribe attributes, roles, duties, and traits to lesbians based on their appearance or presentation.

I find it especially frustrating when there's comfounded confusion since the line tends to get blurred from butch women to FtMs.

Mostly, though, I hate that society likes to place the same restrictions and generalizations on butch women as they do on men, and has decided in its own short-sighted way that butch women /are/ men, want to be men, or like to pretend to be men. Ugh. And that they all want to date femmes. And of course, society treats femmes like they would straight women, except for the idea that "a good deep dickin'" would fix the whole 'lesbian problem.'

See, I'm ranting. I think that the root of a lot of our big issues (sexism/mysogyny, transphobia, homophobia/heterosexism) is a gender issue. Society as a whole is afraid of, and immediately retreats from, anything that breaks those ridiculous gender stereotypes we all know are not true. I don't think society has a problem, for example, with lesbianism per se. After all, straight guys love lipstick lesbians, right? The problem seems to come when one (or more) in the dynamic cross established gender lines. Then you get to hear those gems like, "Who is the man in the relationship?" or "Why don't you try a real man instead of a woman pretending to be one?"

I mean, really, critics of feminism like to remind us that we're "trying to be men." Sheesh, people, this is 2003! You can wear your heels, and I can wear my docs. You can wear makeup if you want, and I can choose not to. And we can go out, and people can wonder who the 'man' is... or I can go out with someone who looks more like me, and people can gawk. And we can take whatever roles we want when we're knocking boots (and heels), too!

Okay, I'm done blathering for now.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

So it sounds like your problem isn't really with butch/femme at all, but with how straight society treats butches and femmes?

I think straight society does like to make butch women into men and femme women into "straight women who haven't gotten enough dick." But I think society has a weird relationship with lesbians in general. I mean, I don't know if it's true that straight society has no problem with lesbianism. I mean, men like lipstick lesbians for exactly the reason you describe--they don't think they're *really* lesbians. It's like that Gigli movie--she's not really a lesbian, she's just a hot chick who's in touch with her sexuality.

If it were really about the women, and really not about voyeurism, they've got no place for it. That's why the gender thing comes into play: straight society interprets anything other than femme-ness as "really a lesbian," and therefore a problem. And therefore they must not really be women--they must be not-women, and in our society, which doesn't understand the gradations of gray, they must be "men."

I don't know if I'm talking in a circle or not. I think maybe somewhere in there, we agree with each other completely. :)

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

So it sounds like your problem isn't really with butch/femme at all, but with how straight society treats butches and femmes?

It's not even just straight society, though, sometimes it's within our own little piece of society!

Like I said in a comment to someone else, I don't have a problem with anyone choosing to identify as butch or femme or whatever. I have a problem when the identification is used to define a role, or pattern of behavior.

Whether it's in straight, mainstream society or in our little homo on the range, I don't think attributes or actions should be placed on someone because of how she presents. I don't think it should be assumed that because she cuts her hair and wears boots, she should be the asker, the payer, the fucker.

I do, however, agree with how you say straight society relates to lesbians. 100% I definitely think het society sees femme lesbians as "still having straight potential" and butch lesbians as "lost causes." And threatening. ROWR.:)

So yes, I think we basically agree... although I don't believe the fault lies entirely with het society. I think we're quick to ascribe attributes to butch and femme women, too.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

I think we're quick to ascribe attributes to butch and femme women, too.

Hey look! We agree again!

No, you're right. I tend to focus on the straights, but lesbians are just as guilty of butch-means-agressive, femme-means-meek as straight people. Or rather, we have our own stereotypes... I think there's still a suspicion of femmes in the dyke community (a sneaking suspicion that we're really straight, and just playing at being dykes, or else why woulnd't we "look like dykes"? hehe I've been at gay bars and been given this attitude)

But I think what you're talking about is slightly different. I think you're right: there is that old fashioned idea of what a butch is and what a femme is.

Personally, I think that stereotype stops some butch-seeming women from identifying as butch. They see it as limiting, because butch is so often defined as stone, or as "I ask you out."

What I find, as a femme who's attracted to butches, is that it's less about butch femme than it is about being reared as women in this society. We're *all* raised to be the asked-out instead of the one who asks out, so we all sit there at the bar and say, "Gee, that girl is cute. But she must not like me because she hasn't asked me out."

hehe. It's amazing any of us manage to end up together at all! hehe.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I think when you say this: We're *all* raised to be the asked-out instead of the one who asks out, so we all sit there at the bar and say, "Gee, that girl is cute. But she must not like me because she hasn't asked me out." in some ways reiterates mainstream society's idea that butches are not women. I mean, here they are taking on "male" roles or whatever. Le heaving sigh.

I do see this changing, though, both in our community and in het society. Girls are asking boys out all over the place, and that makes me happy. Regardless of whether someone identifies as butch, femme, something in between, or something completely outside, what I /loooooove/ is self-confidence bordering on arrogance and social aggression. Meee-ow. :)

The whole idea of the "stone butch" makes me so sad. Now, I know that there are people who fit this image, but I also know SO MANY MORE young, butch-identifying girls who read Stone Butch Blues and use it practically as a Bible. It's sad enough that so many of our young people have to rely on books for role models because physical people aren't available to them, but it's even sadder when books are seen as definitive fact.

I suppose I take a lot of this personally, perhaps TOO personally, and I admit that. I'll never forget Jennifer's and my first real vacation getaway to P-town when our relationship was fairly new. Since we were a long-distance couple, we hadn't had a lot of opportunities to be intimate, and were still awkward with each other. But what shattered me was her reluctance to let me anywhere near her. But it was when she sighed, "Perhaps I really /am/ a stone butch," that broke my heart.

To think she'd never given the opportunity to receive physical intimacy much of a chance because of literature's idea of who she was is horrible. Ugh ugh ugh.

So there you have it. I'm biased because of my heart. (And my need to be the giver as well as the receiver.)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

I think when you say this: We're *all* raised to be the asked-out instead of the one who asks out, so we all sit there at the bar and say, "Gee, that girl is cute. But she must not like me because she hasn't asked me out." in some ways reiterates mainstream society's idea that butches are not women. I mean, here they are taking on "male" roles or whatever. Le heaving sigh.

No, this isn't what I mean. What I meant was that all of us, butch, femme, in between, something else entirely.... we're all raised female, so we're all taught that some day our prince will come. It has nothing to do with what we look like. It has to do with the way we are taught to be (or just are, in my case) shy with people we like.

And I think clinging to the butch-girls-ask-other-girls out thing is just a crutch so other women don't have to get off their ass and do something. (and I want to be clear here that I don't necessarily do that--I asked a boy out! Yay!)

What I think there ought to be, and what would be useful, would be for us to open a discussion with one another about what it is we want. Because it's totally valid for a butch to say, "I don't want to be the agressor, but I'm still butch" as it is for me to say, "I like butch women, and I like a woman who can be really agressive, and can be shy, too." I guess what I'm trying to say say is that there's nothing wrong with wanting the butch to be the agressor. But it shouldn't be assumed that a butch is agressive, just becasue she is butch.

It's a total package--regardless of what we look like, it's the person underneath that you end up falling in love with.


I think there's a way in which the stereotypes are training butch women in how they are "supposed to" behave--like you said, people are taking Stone Butch Blues as a bible, which I don't think it was ever intended to be. I mean, Leslie Newman in that book is tormented. I don't think that's something to aspire to.

But I must say, looking at it from the outside, I also think there's a bit of responsibility on the butch's part to blow apart that myth of the butch as stone, or as the agressor. It's like men's responsibility to blow apart the myth of what being a man is about--women can't do that for them. In the same way, those of us who are attracted to butches can't break that stereotype down on its own. We can--and do--proudly proclaim that we like butch bottoms, or that femme tops are hot, or that butch can mean nothing more than the clothes you wear. But it ultimately is up to the butch to say, "I am a strong butch and I am shy." And stand up for themselves.

Because I don't know about anyone else, but I'll stand behind that butch to the end, for her right to say that. :)

/rant.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

You know what? Things like this are going to make someone fall in love with you HARD. I'm glad I'm with someone so I'm immune.

(And I'm going to respond seriously when I have time to think about it, but I wanted to say this. And I also think we're saying a lot of the same things, I'm just not expressing myself properly. When I read your stuff, I'm like, "Yeah, that's what I said!" but then I read what I said, and realize that I'm having difficulty communicating. Damn learning disabilities!)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

*blush really HARD*

Gee, thanks. :) I have a sexy, sexy brain, huh? hehe.

I look forward to your serious response. By the way, if that last response posted twice, I apologize. LJ was being a fucker. ;)

I realized I wanted to say this, too: The problem is really that we've enmeshed two ideas: gender identity and sexual identity. And I think this conversation, and lots of others, are starting to untangle those two things: Butch does not equal agressive. Femme sure as hell does not equal meak. But sometimes they do equal those things, because that's who those people are--not who that whole *bunch* of people are.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

The problem is really that we've enmeshed two ideas: gender identity and sexual identity.

Yes! This has been the case for all eternity that I know of... gender roles and sex roles have always been paired up, and only recently has the dialogue been opened to gender without including sex and vice versa.

I used to think it was because of homophobia, but lately I've begun to think that people just don't want to discourse about gender. It's easier for people to say that "gender just /is/" or to confuse gender with biological sex than it is to try to dissect and combat eons of societal norms and pressure.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

I used to think it was because of homophobia, but lately I've begun to think that people just don't want to discourse about gender. It's easier for people to say that "gender just /is/" or to confuse gender with biological sex than it is to try to dissect and combat eons of societal norms and pressure.

Well, I tend to think that it's much more specific. Or rather, I've come to believe that society may have this glitch everywhere, but for different reasons. I think here, it's a fear of talking about sex in a real, non-salatious manner, combined with our rigid gender system.

And it's just as much of a problem in the queer community. I mean, I suppose butch-femme is the most obvious example of a gender duality, but we are the community that had the freakin' sex wars in the 1980s because "phallus-shaped things" should come no where near women. And they were the people who said butch-femme was *bad*.

I suppose the point is: more tolerance, less judgement. Butch-femme is a means of expressing gender, yes, but for those of us who are part of it, it's also very sexy. We're turned on by gender difference. I'm attracted to butches because, well, they're freakin' hot, but also because they're different than me. There's a difference that I find compelling.

To me, it's a way of playing with gender, just the way genderqueers do--I'm playing with the traditional notion of femininity by recreating it for the dyke gaze. and butches are playing with the idea of masculinity by transposing that onto a female body--thus proving that they have nothing in common with each other, sex and gender.

But as for the physical act of sex, it seems that we've figure out how to play with gender, but we're less open in playing with sex. There's still an insecurity and fear of rejection, I think, when a butch says, "I'm not the sexual agressor." It becomes a question less than a statement: Is that okay? And then you have the baby butches, some of whom take on butch and think that gives them permission to be sexist assholes.

And for a femme... there's obviously the stereotype that if you look femme, then you must be a pillow queen. And it's frustrating for the femme top friends of mine to navigate that because they feel like they constantly have to blow apart the myth to get people to see them for who they are.

Ultimately, I think that's what you started out saying. We want to be seen for ourselves, for our wholeness, and if we choose to present in a gendered way, it makes it all the more difficult to be seen.

Geez, well that's a novel. Hope that makes sense.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

And it's just as much of a problem in the queer community. I mean, I suppose butch-femme is the most obvious example of a gender duality, but we are the community that had the freakin' sex wars in the 1980s because "phallus-shaped things" should come no where near women. And they were the people who said butch-femme was *bad*.

And the same people who scream for women to be able to be more sex-positive, but still put down and admonish sex workers. And who say butch-femme is bad, but certainly aren't out there making any butch-butch media images.

Ultimately, I think that's what you started out saying. We want to be seen for ourselves, for our wholeness, and if we choose to present in a gendered way, it makes it all the more difficult to be seen.

Please take this as the compliment that I mean it as: I think we make a great intellectual team. We are coming at the same idea from two different angles, using two different sets of language, holding two different sets of emotions - yet in all of the debate, we've eventually realized that we're more in the same place than we thought. How is it that we were standing mere feet from each other, yet talking back to back?

Either way, you, my dear, are SMART. And I have immense respect for you.

I think assumptions suck, plain and simple, regardless of who is doing the assuming. And I can certainly see (and be convinced of) ways that assumptions can help people and groups in the short run, but I think they are only destructive in the long run. If butch/femme helps people find what they are looking for faster, yay for them! I just hope hope HOPE it doesn't keep people from finding what they're looking for because of the presentation or the package.

And you're right - we are getting better, as a society, at playing with gender (especially for women), but not with sex. But our society is so fucked up when it comes to sex, and sadly, I don't see that changing any time soon. Hell, we can't even TALK about sex with the future leaders of our society, because we're afraid of harming them with knowledge. Grr.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

Please take this as the compliment that I mean it as: I think we make a great intellectual team. We are coming at the same idea from two different angles, using two different sets of language, holding two different sets of emotions - yet in all of the debate, we've eventually realized that we're more in the same place than we thought. How is it that we were standing mere feet from each other, yet talking back to back?

Compliment accepted, and right back atcha. I've had so much fun talking with you about this, and I so respect your willingness to go around in these circles with me to find that we're standing hand-in-hand.

As for how we started out talking back to back... I think I at least needed to feel seen and respected for who I was before I could get into a real discussion for you. When talking about these things, I think there's always a little dance--a little bit of "see me for who I am" before any serious talks can start.

And I thank you for seeing me, and I see you, too. And may I say: ROWR.

I think assumptions suck, plain and simple, regardless of who is doing the assuming. And I can certainly see (and be convinced of) ways that assumptions can help people and groups in the short run, but I think they are only destructive in the long run. If butch/femme helps people find what they are looking for faster, yay for them! I just hope hope HOPE it doesn't keep people from finding what they're looking for because of the presentation or the package.

Absolutely! I think this is key: I just hope hope HOPE it doesn't keep people from finding what they're looking for because of the presentation or the package. Because how often do we create rules for ourselves so we feel safe, and then later find we are trapped by them? So often, I think.

And I think it's just the nature of society, of groups, to want to create some safety for themselves, some assumptions. But we're in the midst of upending all those assumptions--as we always are--so tension is inevitable.

Here's to finding what we want, no matter what the labels are. :)

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I think I at least needed to feel seen and respected for who I was before I could get into a real discussion for you.

I can totally respect this. I'm glad we did it. I learned a good bit about you, and I like that.

And I thank you for seeing me, and I see you, too. And may I say: ROWR.

MEEP!

To us!

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Holy crap, LJ exploded and I just spammed the shit out of you.

I'm so sorry.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

That's okay. heheh. I just posted like five times and had to remove it so it doesn't look like I have a computer-stutter. :)

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

we're all raised female, so we're all taught that some day our prince will come

Yes, I was totally agreeing with you. I was just further commenting that when a woman (a butch woman, for example) opts to be the social aggressor, it's another "proof" to the rest of the world that she's "not really a woman," because she's not waiting.

I wish everyone raised children (girls, boys, in betweens) like I want to. The world would be so good!

I guess what I'm trying to say say is that there's nothing wrong with wanting the butch to be the agressor. But it shouldn't be assumed that a butch is agressive, just becasue she is butch.

I am right there with you 100%. It's the assumptions that tick me off, not necessarily for me(I fit a lot of stereotypes, I suppose) but for people that I love. I hate that some people don't even realize they are assumptions - they are so dead set on them that any break from the assumed is some sort of problem or discrepancy.

Like I hate when people assume that femmes are not comfortable with their sexuality - that if they were more "out" or comfortable, they would be more butch. Hello??!? That's crazy! I think femmes tend to be in a more sticky spot, because they're always justifying their existance, both to the straight /and/ the gay community. How does wearing heels change what you like? Bleh.

But it ultimately is up to the butch to say, "I am a strong butch and I am shy." And stand up for themselves.

I'm inclined to agree with this from the get-go simply because I am a get-dirty, DIY kind of girl, so right away I will take any "problem" and figure out what I can do to change it. I definitely think it is up to each individual to confront stereotypes and stand up for themselves as people. It's just as important to say "I do not fit the stereotype and that is cool," as it is to say, "I /do/ fit the stereotype and that is cool."

After all, I'm pretty stereotypical in the lesbian department, on the surface - I like the "right" music, I'm into the "right" politics, I read the "right" books, and I go to the "right" bars. But I'm assumed to be with a femme girl, and I'm not. So sometimes it's cool to be BOTH the rule AND the exception. Or maybe I just like to be difficult.

I also don't see why anyone would aspire to be Leslie Newman, and not just for the torment. I mean, there are such HUGE generational gaps there! Yikes! Similarly, I don't see why someone who chooses to identify as butch would also want to emotionally isolate herself to also identify as stone. I think just as men are being encouraged to show emotion, so we should encourage our young butches to keep themselves emotionally healthy.

I don't get a lot of opportunity to discuss these things anymore, since I left my Big Gay Job. I appreciate the time you're putting into bickering with me. :)

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

I was just further commenting that when a woman (a butch woman, for example) opts to be the social aggressor, it's another "proof" to the rest of the world that she's "not really a woman," because she's not waiting.

This is an interesting point. It's weird, because my first reaction is, "Good! We need to blow apart that stereotype that women are docile at every chance we get!" I just wish that the rationalization wasn't that "well, she's not really a woman anyway, so it doesn't matter."

That, to me is the problem. And to me, it's like my mom's argument when I came out to you: "But things will be harder for you. Poeple will discriminate against you." And my response is, Well, with all due respect, that's their problem, not mine. I can't cant them.

And I think, in order to change the way people (straight and queer) think, we need to just keep blowing the myth apart. Because the other part of this is that people pay a disproportionate attention to the *butches* who are the agressor, but don't pay attention to the femmes, in betweens and others who are the agressors all the time. It seems that the feminist movement has made it okay for women to be agressors, unless they reject their conventional gender assignment, and then they are agressive because they want to be men, not because they are individuals. Does that make sense?

Like I hate when people assume that femmes are not comfortable with their sexuality - that if they were more "out" or comfortable, they would be more butch. Hello??!? That's crazy! I think femmes tend to be in a more sticky spot, because they're always justifying their existance, both to the straight /and/ the gay community. How does wearing heels change what you like? Bleh.

*nodding head enthusiastically*

Abso-fucking-lutely!!! Although, I'll also add that I think we are sticky spots in all the right ways, too. *wink* (couldn't help myself! hehe)

To me, this totally comes from the lesbian feminist movement. And hey, I'm a lesbian feminist, but I also see where that movement failed me. It assumed that all women would prefer to be "free of the shackles of the male-centered world." Well, yeah, that's true. But they extrapolated out that only male-identified women would be conventionally feminine. And that's the fun, in some ways, of being femme. Because then I can confound people and teach them, just by my existance, that the world is so much broader than that. And yeah, I'll stand up proudly and say that I *love* it when a butch loses her train of thought when I put on my lipstick. hehe.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

And I think, in order to change the way people (straight and queer) think, we need to just keep blowing the myth apart. Because the other part of this is that people pay a disproportionate attention to the *butches* who are the agressor, but don't pay attention to the femmes, in betweens and others who are the agressors all the time. It seems that the feminist movement has made it okay for women to be agressors, unless they reject their conventional gender assignment, and then they are agressive because they want to be men, not because they are individuals. Does that make sense?

Perfect sense. It makes so much sense that all I can think to do, really, is sit here in front of my screen and nod a lot. You're absolutely right. Feminism has taught women that it's okay, that it's an /imperative/ to be aggressive... but not butch. It's almost like they're afraid that if people give the impression (whether it's true now, or in the future, or not at all) that they aspire to be men, they are a danger to the movement.

Of course, this is the same movement that argues amongst itself as to whether male-identified people can be feminists at all! How ridiculous to isolate allies. But that's just me.

Because then I can confound people and teach them, just by my existance, that the world is so much broader than that.

Hooray for education!

And yeah, I'll stand up proudly and say that I *love* it when a butch loses her train of thought when I put on my lipstick.

In a randier moment of my life, I sent my beautiful femme MtF princess several tubes of colored, flavored lip gloss (wonderful flavors like cherry coke), and anxiously awaited seeing them, tasting them, and feeling them all over me. Yow.

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

In a randier moment of my life, I sent my beautiful femme MtF princess several tubes of colored, flavored lip gloss (wonderful flavors like cherry coke), and anxiously awaited seeing them, tasting them, and feeling them all over me. Yow.

Yow, indeed. I'll just sit here and blush if you don't mind. *wink*

Feminism has taught women that it's okay, that it's an /imperative/ to be aggressive... but not butch. It's almost like they're afraid that if people give the impression (whether it's true now, or in the future, or not at all) that they aspire to be men, they are a danger to the movement.

I actually think this is the crux of your argument in your first response to me. It's like butches (or birls, or whatever term you prefer) get excluded from these feminist gains because others are too shortsighted to see that, underneath all the t-shirts and boxer-briefs and boy clothes, there's a woman, and a woman who probably gets way more shit for her appearance than I do.

In Female Masculinity, Judith Halberstam makes a really good statement: women are really good at policing their space--so much so that they are worse than men in this regard. She talks about butches using the women's bathroom and getting policed by the femme-looking women who go in there. They are basically told to get out. In so many ways, that's exactly what feminists do to butches: you can be assertive and strong, but not if you don't *look just like me.*

Aggravating! I hadn't thought of it like that before, but now I'm pissed!

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I was just reading a little vignette written by a femme about her butch partner. There was some sort of experience where the two women went into the women's restroom, and someone gawked, "Is it a woman?" The femme replied, "Yes, /it/ is a woman, and it has ears."

ROWR.

reply in the second part....

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

I hate that some people don't even realize they are assumptions - they are so dead set on them that any break from the assumed is some sort of problem or discrepancy.

I hear what you're saying here, and it sounds like this has hurt Jen a lot (and hurt you by extension). It's an interesting thing, because it's all about projection. I find myself struggling with this sometimes, too. I see a hot butch, and I *want* her to be the strong, agressive type. And I don't want to let go of that. But that's my issue, not hers, you know? And of course, I'm learning to let go of it. It's all about asking before assuming, right?

But I'm assumed to be with a femme girl, and I'm not. So sometimes it's cool to be BOTH the rule AND the exception. Or maybe I just like to be difficult.

Or maybe you just like being yourself. ;) You CRAZY girl. hehe. It's funny, because there are tons of butches in Santa Cruz, and it was so confusing for me when I first moved back here, because I expected them to be into femmes. But oh no. They were mostly into other butches or genderqueer people. And that left this femme out in the cold.

But it was also an object less in the power of stereotypes: they didn't identify as butch because they assumed that butch meant "attracted to femme," along with a laundry list of other things. And it pissed me off, because to me it's so much more complex.

Similarly, I don't see why someone who chooses to identify as butch would also want to emotionally isolate herself to also identify as stone. I think just as men are being encouraged to show emotion, so we should encourage our young butches to keep themselves emotionally healthy.

ABSOLUTELY! I don't think this has been emphasized enough. I find that a lot of the butches I've dated have had a hard time expressing their feelings and being vulnerable. We all have a hard time with that, but there was that butch veneer on top of their persona, that was, "It's okay to not talk because i'm *butch.*" What a crutch! And actually, after my last relationship, I started questioning whether I wanted to be with butch women anymore or not, because I was tired of slowly teasing their tenderness out. I want someone who's going to be open and available to me, you know? Who is emotionally well-developed.

So what can we do? Let's put out a pamphlet for the young butches and tell them that there's another way to be butch. Or better, *you* should write a semi-autobiographical book, so that butches see another way!

And no problem bickering with you. This is one of my favorite topics. I'm only recently (within the last four years) out as femme, so I loooove talking about it. :)

Re: reply in the second part....

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

So what can we do? Let's put out a pamphlet for the young butches and tell them that there's another way to be butch. Or better, *you* should write a semi-autobiographical book, so that butches see another way!

But I'm not a butch! :) Of course, I say this and then I read they didn't identify as butch because they assumed that butch meant "attracted to femme," along with a laundry list of other things and I wonder if this has affected me, too, or if it's something else. Or both.

Seriously, though, I'd love to have some sort of manual for young butches so they weren't so dependent on Stone Butch Blues. Jen and I know a young butch and she has, for one reason or another, imprinted herself on Jen like a baby duck. She really identifies with her, and then is all baffled when something she assumes about herself (and by extension, my Jennifer) is incorrect in some way.

At a party once, she mentioned something about how great it must be that we live together, so that I could cook her dinner at home. Jen looked at her and casually said, "Jude doesn't cook. Jude can hardly cook toast. She is a total bachelor. I do all the cooking." The girl's jaw dropped to the floor. I suppose she, in her identification, assumed Jen to have me as a sort of housewife, especially while I'm unemployed.

It still gives me the giggles.

You know, I'm flattered, but I don't think any book I wrote would be terribly interesting. :)

Re: reply in the second part....

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

I'm flattered, but I don't think any book I wrote would be terribly interesting.

Oh, come ON! hehe.

I suppose someone will come along at some point and write that book, though. There's clearly a need.

It's interesting, though, that you say you don't identify as butch.... I worry (purely a selfish worry, mind you) that younger dykes don't identify as butch for the reasons you say... And then I'm left in the cold. The ones who do identify as butch... well, some of them, anyway, identify as butch in part because they buy into the stereotypes about what butch and femme mean.

I dunno. Maybe I'm just at a low ebb in my relationship life.... I just hope there's a cool, interesting, non-rigid butch out there for lil ole me! hehe.

Re: reply in the second part....

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

It's interesting, though, that you say you don't identify as butch.... I worry (purely a selfish worry, mind you) that younger dykes don't identify as butch for the reasons you say... And then I'm left in the cold. The ones who do identify as butch... well, some of them, anyway, identify as butch in part because they buy into the stereotypes about what butch and femme mean.

Well, would someone have to personally identify as butch for you to be involved with her? After all, you did ask out an FtM boy, and I'm not sure he would identify as a butch. *shrug* As my 6-year-old philosopher friend Tayler once said, "You like what you like, Mom."

I don't identify as butch (or any other sort of lesbian dichotomizing term) because I don't identify as lesbian. And while I am perfectly comfortable letting society assume and identify me as a lesbian, I can't. To me, a crucial part of the word 'lesbian' is being a girl/woman, and I can't say that 100% of the time.

Sometimes I feel like a straight boy, other times like a tranny fag, and still other times like a dyke. And, well, hrm. This is really hard for me to articulate.

I just don't /feel/ butch. Not just in the butch/femme sexual sense, or in the assumptions sense, or whatever. I just don't feel it. I don't think my mannerisms are entirely butch, or my attitudes. I really do feel, in all senses of the words, somewhere in between.

Then again, I used to have this fantastic high-femme coworker who claimed that every woman, even the butchest women, had a little femme inside of her. Once I looked over and asked, "Even me?" and she said, "Oh honey, absolutely not. You're all boy."

:)

Re: reply in the second part....

[http://users.livejournal.com/_epiphany_girl_/]

I don't identify as butch (or any other sort of lesbian dichotomizing term) because I don't identify as lesbian. And while I am perfectly comfortable letting society assume and identify me as a lesbian, I can't. To me, a crucial part of the word 'lesbian' is being a girl/woman, and I can't say that 100% of the time.

Sometimes I feel like a straight boy, other times like a tranny fag, and still other times like a dyke. And, well, hrm. This is really hard for me to articulate.

That's so interesting. I'm fascinated by this. In my little mind, I feel like the nuances you're making about your own self are an extension of the idea of butch. It started out as just: I'm not feminine, and I like dressing masculinely, so I must be butch. But now we have so many other options... A person can be a dyke, a person can be just you, and let that be all the definition you need (three cheers!), a person can be FTM... or a million other things in between.

I love that! I love that kind of variation and fluidity!

I don't have anything really scholarly or anything to say to your post, I'm afraid. I'm fresh out of insights.

But to answer your question: no, they don't have to identify as butch--after all, the cutie FTM is *not* butch, he's a guy. They just have to be non-feminine and they have to be attracted to me in part for my femme-ness (I need that part of me recognized in any relationship), and they have to be fairly agressive (bordering on arrogant, as I think you said. ROWR).

Could you order me up one of those, please? hehe

btw, check out my journal, because all this talk has made me start to think about how femme is interpretted in the dyke community. I'm curious what your response is. :)

[kat-chan.livejournal.com]

I'm with you on the whole butch/femme thing, I'm sure.

And as someone who is seen more often as butch, I rarely, if ever, am asked out, too. I think that has been one of the things that has sort of bugged me about my situation with Ka. She seems to just expect me to read her mind or do what I want, and I just don't operate that way. Ah, well...

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I guess I'm lucky in a lot of ways because I have never really been in the "dating pool," so I never thought about whether people would expect me to ask them. That, and I'm pretty forward about what I want, and I tell people upfront, regardless of what clothes I'm wearing. :)

[kat-chan.livejournal.com]

Well, for me I've always been very shy and afraid of rejection, so I've I tend to be really quiet about how I feel about someone, and if they don't come right out and ask me about how I'm feeling I usually won't say anything. And you can just imagine the problems that might cause, especially if someone is used to not having to ask these things.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I used to be real quiet about what I wanted.

And then I realized that I was never getting what I wanted.