To procreate or not to procreate?

[judecorp]

It was recently asked of me if I thought it was responsible to go through fertility treatments to potentially bring a child into the world who might also have infertility issues, thereby creating familial dependence on the pharmaceutical industry. The comment and question was: I don't really consider fertility drugs a good idea. I understand the urge to be pregnant, to carry and give birth - I have that same urge. But I'm also aware that pregnancy may not be the best option for me and my child. If you push to have biological children, they will likely suffer the same infertility problems you're having, condemning generations of your offspring to dependence on Big Pharma.

My quick response:

Interesting perspective.

I don't consider myself any more dependent on "Big Pharma" than your average Joe Schmo American. My family history, like most people's family histories, is full of pharmaceuticals - high blood pressure, type II diabetes, cholesterol, heart disease, skin cancer, depression, et cetera. All of these are fairly common problems these days, especially as people get older and "modern medicine" keeps them going. My grandfather is 88 years old and has had 2 heart attacks and one bypass surgery, takes medication for heart disease, blood pressure, and type II diabetes (largely diet controlled). Should he have not had children?

I think the push to adopt existing children is admirable, and more than admirable, it should be considered and pursued by more people. However, I think that discouraging people from having children (biological, adopted, or whatever) usually ends up boiling down to trying to create some superior class of people who 'should' have biochildren over others who 'shouldn't' - queers, single parents, poor people, sicker people, older people, people without health insurance, people in poorer countries... I could continue to go on.

I'm appalled by a statement that implies that a child with the potential to develop endocrine problems (like PCOS) is somehow less desirable or would be 'suffering' more than an adopted child. My parents actually /don't/ have a history of PCOS or other endocrine problems, although PCOS is now seen largely as an insulin problem more than an ovary problem... and since my grandfather developed type II diabetes later in life it's /possible/ that I've inherited some sort of predisposition to him. Of course, it's also possible that I could have a heart attack in my 50s like my father, or have high cholesterol like my grandmother.

What /is/ a shame is the way pregnancy and childbirth have become big business for medical and pharmaceutical companies, with scheduled inductions and pain-free laboring and intervention after intervention that in most cases are not necessary and may impede progress. In that sense, /anyone/ who chooses (or doesn't choose) to be pregnant is feeding "Big Pharma." What next? End all pregnancies? Decide no one should give birth?

I think it's fantastic that you have soul-searched and come to the conclusion that pregnancy may not be the best option for you and your child. My hope is that every person is able to do the same amount of thinking and have the same amount of choice.

I thought this would make an interesting interactive debate, because I know that I have a lot of different friends with a LOT of different perspectives. SO HAVE AT IT!

Comments

[whirledpeas.livejournal.com]

Actually, I don't want to HAVE AT IT in your journal.

I'd rather send you an anonymous book.
Maybe called "What to expect when you're expecting."

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

BWA HA HA HA HAAAAA, oh god, I'm dying.

But please don't send the "What to Expect" book. It's so mainstream. :)

[amyura.livejournal.com]

And it sucks. It should be called How to Freak Out About Every Little Thing When You're Expecting.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

So true. I get so nervous when I see my families reading it. Although I suppose SOME information is better than none.

[gala.livejournal.com]

If you do want to read it, we ended up with about 3 copies of it.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I've read it, but thanks! (We have it at work.)

[cathboblet.livejournal.com]

Well - let me answer by throwing a question back at you ;). I know you've said that should things not work out, you'd look into adoption, but that's not your first choice. What is it about pregnancy and childbirth that you find compelling?

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Adoption isn't our first choice for logistical reasons more than anything else. We want to pursue adoption through foster care, and we can't do the foster care thing right now, largely because our landlords (though they can't legally kick us out for it) don't really want kids in the house. So we kind of need to wait until we have our own place, and then we'll do the foster parent process. And to do private adoption requires crazy money!

There's something about that idea of pregnancy and childbirth that, to me, is like a link to all childbearing women that have ever lived or ever will live - like some sort of cosmic silk thread that binds women together. As someone who has often felt kind of in and out of gender confusion, there's something fascinating and oddly comforting about tapping into some of that cosmic pregnancy power. Goddess worship and all of that.

I also a control freak, so I admit that the idea of taking my broken body and wrangling it into something functional is quite appealing. ;)

But the real reason that Jen and I want to see at least one child through from conception on is to be able to experience the whole process, the total picture of parenthood. Adoption/foster care will be a good thing for us and will help us define our picture of family just as well, but won't help with the dream of uniting as a unit to make something happen and to see it through from minute one all the way to the end. There's something very appealing about knowing where something/someone came from, tracing him/her back through lineage and seeing X's nose and Y's chin, a particular smile that looks like Grandpa and a mean streak that comes from Cousin G. Besides that, I want to have at least one experience where I get to watch that little person come from a little blob of goo to something so much more, where I get to witness that very first day of life outside the womb, where we get to participate in that cycle of life that we're all a part of and often never think about.

I guess I see them as two distinctly different spiritual events. One isn't better than another, but both bring their own power. I believe that giving birth is a right of all women, should they desire so, regardless of situation. Every so often I get jazzed about exercising my rights.

[cathboblet.livejournal.com]

Well, that's pretty damn compelling ;) - and a wonderful set of thoughts and motivations to boot. It's rare people share their thoughts about this process so fully - so thank you for giving me a peek inside your head there, love.

I don't think of pregnancy and childbirth as a right, although rights are undoubtedly tied up in the situation. (Watch me struggle to express myself ;)). Your doctor's visit on Friday, for example, where you discovered that your insurance company won't consider you and Jennifer to have been 'trying' because, essentially, you're in a same-sex relationship . . . that's bullshit. And discriminatory.

But I still, for myself . . . I've never really understood the focus on nine months of pregnancy as opposed to a lifetime of parenting. I've known too many women (although this by no means encompasses all the women I've known who've struggled with conception) who've focused on wanting to be pregnant rather than wanting to be a *mother* - and while the two things are related, they're not the same thing at all. That's why, I think, I found your thoughts about this as a spiritual process so interesting. Perhaps the other women I've known haven't been able to express what they meant so eloquently, and I should cut them some slack. :D But what you expressed here is so very different from what I've heard other women express in my life - an almost victim status, as if they're being denied something they're owed; a box to check on the way to old age. It's the difference between articulating the want to be a parent and share something with a partner and a child - which you articulated - and articulating a sense of self-entitlement, a want for personal gratification. Maybe the issue is one of expression more than sentiment?

It's all so nuanced, and I'm not sure that I can adequately express the distinctions as I see/hear/feel them. So, uh, there's my first stab ;)

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

That's interesting, to talk about comparing nine months of pregnancy to a lifetime of parenting. It certainly shows that in the long run and in the bigger picture, pregnancy is only a drop in the bucket of what is going on.

I always feel kind of weird when I talk to people who are unable to conceive or have been trying for a long time and seem to feel like only a biological child will do. It makes me wonder what the goal was - pregnancy or motherhood? I know what you mean about the victim status, and I don't know what to say about that. It's kind of bizarre. It's also bizarre to me when people say they don't like any kids but their own... like you can't fall in love with a child that doesn't come out of your own body.

We caqn always chat more. :)

re: victim status

[etherial.livejournal.com]

To quote a (redneck) comedian:

My wife's gotten really lazy over the past five months. She doesn't call it lazy, though, she calls it "pregnant".

[rachelmichellek.livejournal.com]

about the landlord- will they let a baby be in your apartment or just not a kid? and isn't that discrimination, to not let people with kids rent from you?

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Legally, they can't prevent us from having children in the apartment. It's not like they could kick us out or whatever. I just know that they would prefer not to have kids in the apartment, they've always made that clear, and if we'd had kids they probably would have rented our place to another couple.

They wouldn't want a baby in here, either. We're planning to move away this summer, where we can fill a house with kids to our hearts' content!

[rachelmichellek.livejournal.com]

holy pete, you're moving again?!?! where now?

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Boy, you don't read this stuff much, do you?

Jen and I have been preparing to buy a house in Western Mass for, like, ever. We're hoping to do it this summer after my dad's house (hopefully) sells.

[thespian.livejournal.com]

you've developed sperm?

[etherial.livejournal.com]

The hard part is remembering to only use the "red light".

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

YOWZA!!

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

The problem is that if we were going to use fresh sperm, the dude would have to be hear us so he could, you know, supply on demand. But in order to have donated sperm frozen and prepared and all of that, it needs to be tested like woah, held for six months, and tested again. It's kind of too much to expect someone to do that... not to mention it's incredibly expensive.

Does he want to come out here once a month and, erm, "read magazines" in our bathroom? ;)

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

E-mail sent.:)

[vorpalbla.livejournal.com]

"What next? End all pregnancies? Decide no one should give birth?"

That would certainly put a dent in the whole peak oil problem. Although saving Social Security would be another matter...

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I'd rather get rid of the SUVs and Hummers than the babies. ;)

[eeka13.livejournal.com]

Well, I have two stances on this, given the way you brought it up. I personally am against creating any more children, until all the children in the world have homes and we've eradicated hunger. But I also would never judge what a particular individual chooses, because it isn't my place or anyone's place to dictate what someone should do.

This concept can get really interesting, because so many people take my views on this subject SO PERSONALLY, which, while irritating, is also a sociological curiosity. As I said earlier, I'm absolutely a believer in choice, so I would only bring up things like ideas from VHEMT when someone has asked me for my views on reproducing. But yeah, so many people have gotten really offended by my views, equating them with hating children, or giving me this "when you reproduce you'll change your mind" stuff or telling me that I'm offensive to families or whatever. It's like these people take my views as a personal attack, thinking I'm attacking their choices, while not allowing me to be offended by hunger, overpopulation, child abuse, children living their entire lives in foster care, and so forth. It's really intriguing though what idiocy these discussions can actually spark. One person told me, when I said I was a negative population growther and was not going to reproduce, "That makes no sense; what if your parents had chosen not to have you?" Uhh.

[rizzo41.livejournal.com]

"That makes no sense; what if your parents had chosen not to have you?"

I hate hate hatey hate hate that. People say that to me as well. Does that mean I should be desperately trying to fertilize every egg my body produces because of the potential person it could be? Comments like that make no sense to me and I have yet to have come up with a smart answer to it, so if you've got one, please share. I had a teacher in high school who said that he would only ever have two children. He saw that as a way of regenerataing the population rather than overcrowding it. I think that's a great idea. Personally, I don't want children, so I figure those who have more than two children have taken my 'share'.

I've also been told that due to my lack of desire to have children that I am 'incredibly selfish'. And yes, those exact words were used to describe my decision. Incredibly selfish. Luckily I did have a fairly good response to this one and it managed to shut this particular ignoramous up. I opined that it was far more selfish for people to have children they don't want.

[eeka13.livejournal.com]

Uh, yeah, isn't it more selfish to tell people what to do with their lives and bodies?

And/or to suggest people create someone to use additional natural resources when that isn't what they want to choose to do?

[eeka13.livejournal.com]

Also, keep in mind that the people who use such arguments are, after all, people who want to tell everyone what they should do. I've heard the whole "but if everyone stops reproducing, we'll all die out" argument entirely too many times. Uh, WTF? See, *I* am choosing not to reproduce, and I would like to encourage others to exercise mindfulness in reproduction, but I've absolutely not ever said that there should be an immediate ban on reproduction. If we cut the worldwide birth rate IN HALF today, it would still take decades before we really saw positive changes in the environment, the number of children without homes, the number of starving children, and so forth. My aim is not for there to be no people (even though I do like a lot of the logic published by VHEMT). My thinking is that once all the children in the world have homes and are fed and have room to run and play, then we can start making more children to enjoy.

[kieron.livejournal.com]

"That makes no sense; what if your parents had chosen not to have you?"


Answer: Then I wouldn't be subjected to the stupidity of your question, jackass.

It is stupid to ask "what if" questions like that. Having or not having children is always a choice - sometimes an easy one, sometimes not and no one's views on whether or not another person should or shouldn't have kids can be anything more than idle opinion. Too bad a lot of people think that their opinions of what should be is, in their humble opinion of course, absolutely right and you should be ashamed for even contemplating anything different.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I think it's totally weird when people treat differences of opinion or philosophy as personal attacks. Can't we just disagree, people? It happens with a bunch of hot-button issues: kids, politics, abortion, etc. It's kind of frustrating, because it totally closes off all discourse.

I also think that more efforts should be made to take care of existing children and eradicate poverty and hunger. But I don't think this excludes having biological children... and I do think that having biological children is very, very important to some people. And those people should /still/ find a way to contribute to eradicating poverty, child abuse, hunger, etc.

I ramble...

[rizzo41.livejournal.com]

Well, you know that I don't want children to begin with because, well, I just don't like them (and I hate the people who think that 'but you were a child once!' is a snappy retort that will make me change my mind... ) but I did think long and hard about what route I would go should I change my mind (like nearly everyone insists I will some day). I'm pretty much the cess pit of our family gene pool. Nearly every physical quirk or maladie from my parents to my grandparents made it into my DNA. The family nose, the joint issues, the chinlessness, the bad skin, the weak immune system, the weight problem... right down to that weird enormous mole in my armpit, all trace directly back within two generations. I long ago decided that if I changed my mind about having a family that I absolutely have no desire to inflict a child with my chromosomes. But that's MY choice and not one I would try to push on someone else. Well, unless they were going to pass along some really fucked up disease that *would* create a lifetime of suffering for a child. But the possibility of passing along infirtility shouldn't be something that holds you back. Let's say you have a 50/50 chance of having a girl. Did your mom or her mother have problems conceiving? They *had* children before fertility clinics were so commonplace, so I'll assume there were no problems. Ok, so it doesn't seem to run in your family so far, there's only a small chance it would continue, right? Mind you, I'm not a doctor and I know nothing about PCOS, but it only seems logical to me. You've got, what, a 2% chance of having a daughter who has the same 'female' problems? Bah. And who's to say what advances will and won't be made in the 20-30 years between the time YOU have a baby and the time your baby has a baby?

Re: I ramble...

[eeka13.livejournal.com]

You know what though? I don't think it's anyone's place either to say whether it's acceptable to create children when there's a substantial risk of significant disability. I think it's fine for a particular family to decide they don't want a child with a disability, or any more children with disabilities, but I think it's really ableist to say as a blanket statement that any particular family should stop reproducing. I worked with a family who chose to continue having children who all had the same chromosomal condition (and had severe disabilities). I probably wouldn't have chosen this, mostly because I don't think I have the resources or energy to parent 5 children who need 24/7 care like these kids, but I do absolutely respect their choice. Otherwise, I would be saying that people without disabilities are more valuable than people with disabilities, which is an idea I strongly refute.

Re: I ramble...

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Amen.

Re: I ramble...

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I certainly haven't ever thought you selfish or misguided for not wanting to have kids. Just like I have always known that you don't want kids, you have always known that I do. It's such a personal decision that impacts so many lives, I can't believe someone would call you selfish for not wanting to ruin a bunch of lives by bringing up a kid you didn't even want. Ugh. Some people are such asshats.

Also, I don't think you have bad genes. That's because I think you're TEH AWESOME.

[siercia]

I think the whole thing of not having children because of a fear of passing on fertility issues to your offspring is rather silly. There's FAR too many variable to even really worry about that - you might have a boy, your daughter might not have any issues, medicine may totally have PCOS figured out in 20 years (maybe even without drugs), and your kids might not even want children.

There are certainly many medical conditions for which passing a problem on to your children is a significant concern, and I would hope that someone with those problems would carefully weigh the risks and benefits before deciding to have a biological child. But PCOS? I hardly think that qualifies.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I definitely have strong feelings about this whole "passing on genes" thing since I spend my days working with lots of beautiful children who have developmental delays and disabilities. So it's certainly not a compelling argument to me to worry about passing on PCOS.

[kjtoo.livejournal.com]

I'm not in the mood for intelligent, informed debate right now, so I'll just say this:

Go. Make babies.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Wanna help? You obviously have strong swimmers. ;)

[kjtoo.livejournal.com]

My swimmers are Navy SEALs: they managed to circumvent perimeter defenses in order to gain access to the target zone. That's determination for you.

I've never actually thought about becoming a sperm donor, but I don't think it's for me. I'm a little picky about the circumstances under which Lando and the Ugnaughts are awakened. I don't think an eight-by-eight room with an empty yogurt cup and a handful of girlie mags is going to create the sort of ambiance I like.

On an unrelated note: you've been tagged.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I finally got around to answering your tag! Sorry it took so long. :)

[livinganthology.livejournal.com]

I have PCOS. I don't hate my mom for giving birth to me, nor does my partner, who has known since minute #1 that I will not attempt to become pregnant.

The only thing I can think of is GATACA (I think that was the name of the movie). Your response was clean and well worded. I'd have hit them back with a "fuck you, thank GOD you're not breeding!"

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I never saw that movie - what was it about?

I don't know if I'll ever be able to become pregnant, but it might be fun to try! Heck, the little dose of metformin I've been taking for a year got me from zero periods to four... so I'm kind of excited to see what raising the dose will do. :)

[rachelmichellek.livejournal.com]

I don't have any particularly insightful things to say, other than that I think your paragraphs on people who are visiting the slippery slope to eugenics must be particularly distressing to have to arguments with, and that must suck.

I do have concerns about world population and things like that, but would never say THESE groups of people SHOULD reproduce, THESE should not- I just think that in general, altogether, as people on earth, fewer babies should be had, because the evironment is suffering from out burden and we're already seeing such a lowering of quality of life.

Also, like I told you the other day, I've just (vicariously?) witnessed so much of PCOS women SUFFERING over the fertility medicines and the side effects and the PCOS and the processes and the expense and the miscarriages and the extreme difficulties for years on medicine, that it's just turned me off to the whole baby-creation medical industry, and that it would made me worry for you (not that I would tell you not to, but I just would be concerned for you)- I've just pegged that path in my mind as a path involving lots of difficulty and tragedy, one that if someone asked me, I would suggest they not go forward on. Not because I don't want their DNA to live on or to "breed out gayness" or because or any other reason than that I would hate for them to have the heartache and side effects and suffering. Did you ever go talk to people on soulcysters.net about your options and their experiences, BTW? It's interesting there.

And other than the fear of BIG NASTY PHARMA I also dislike the baby making medical industry for suckering low income women into selling their eggs, which are often obtained through really dangerous procedures and some of the women even die...

If you and J did have a baby, I would love it. If you adopted, I would love it. Because I am annoying, smothering-with-love, kissy-kissy Auntie Rachel.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I have several friends with PCOS and with other infertility problems (including my own SIL, Jen's brother's wife) and I definitely know how difficult and painful it can be. I know that it's never a guaranteed success, and that there is pain (physical, emotional, spiritual) associated with the fertility treatment process. However, I also know that for some people, there is pain to give that dream up. I'm not saying I'm one of those people, however.

The path is not ALWAYS full of pain, difficulty, and tragedy, however. PCOS isn't a guarantee of those things. Lots of people who /don't/ have PCOS also miscarry, and have to try for a long time, and stuff. It's all part of the process for some people.

Likewise, being a foster parent can be full of major emotional pain. But I think that's worthwhile, too. And if everyone was deterred by the pain involved, there would be no foster parents. And that would be a tragedy.