Of course it's a big decision. That's why I said I was "starting to consider" it. Meaning, basically, that it was a thought, and lately it's become conversation between Jen and me - just some tidbit of an idea that's been floating between us.
Her brother and sister-in-law are lawyers, so she's got pretty good first hand experience about how that all goes. And I've known a good number of people, yourself included, who have gone (or are going) to law school.
I really did blink a lot when I saw your response, though. Maybe I wasn't clear on what you meant. *shrug*
I'm not really sure what was confusing about my first comment, except maybe the "If you are proud of your 4.0" which I did mean as an IF... I know you were pleased by it at the time of your MSW but I really can't judge based on the comments you made then how important it would be to you. But I did want to you know that *IF* that was something important to you, it's nigh impossible to achieve in law school.
My mom went apeshit when, despite many mitigating circumstances, my law school GPA never rose above 2.7 in law school nevermind my almost perfect 5 years of undergrad and grad school before that. So I know it is important to *some* people (like my mom with 4 degrees including PhD at 4.0 P). I've seen too many first years crying in their beer over getting straight B's -- for getting any B at all-- for the first time *ever* (or since what 2nd grade when they stopped giving you S/U :P)
I still really don't think people should put themselves through law school unless they really need to. But I guess if one had instate tuition, a thick enough hide to have both faculty AND students denigrating you to your face, and three years to burn I guess it's better than say, prison ;) My school was apparently one of the best at public interest law stuff (in that they had a lot of classes, nationally respected profs and a student loan repayment scheme, etc) BUT there was only so much I could take of people telling me to my face that I was a second class person because public interest was "for losers who can't hack it in the real world". After that I got right back in their faces, and in the dean's face, but it was just waaaaay more nightmare than anyone should have to deal with! It was like junior high, only I was old enough to know that these people were utterly juvenile but yet SO disheartening to realise that adults could be "successful" in the eyes of the world and yet sooooo fucked in the head! This was before Dubya was President of course, or I'd not have been that surprised :P
(He really was a good governor. Little did we know that foreign policy was what we never should have let him play with!)
Then of course there was the ethics class when I would have to run out of the room to vomit because the "ethics" that are nationally mandated were so IMMORAL I couldn't stand it. Granted, most are things I'd never have to face, but some of the rules as they stand are just *sickening*. It scared me off trial advocacy for good.
(And in reality a lot of the work that I did for the firm here was pretty morally yuck, but we were just getting paid to make lame arguments on behalf of tobacco companies. Which on the whole moral judgement scale is not at the vomit level, esp as we knew the arguments wouldn't win anyway but they paid us to crank em out regardless.)
That said, law school in the UK rocks and is totally unlike anything in the US and I highly recommend it. I'd gladly go for another three years of it here.
But as far as advocacy, I went to law school because I really thought I could help with political issues and such. Unfortunately, it's the kids with the poly sci degrees and eighty million years of interning at the capitol that get the lobby jobs and/or get taken seriously at the helm of advocacy oganizations. People with law degrees get to be the lawyers for the lobbyists. :/ There is still ONE job out there that I would love to do, that does require a law degree and is in some way related to advocacy and improving the laws, but as far as I know that job only exists in Texas. In the social rights world, having a PhD in your field is probably going to gain you more than having a JD.
Obviously other areas of advocacy and lobbying will vary, but I've been involved with the EFF and EPIC for too long :/ I've seen lawyers leave EFF because there was only so much they could do but other people with other degrees could accomplish more and thus were a better use for organization funds.
So yeah, utlimately all of this is babble, but look into the *specific* types of groups you want to work with or emulate. When it gets to the level of swaying a judge or a congressperson, the PhD generally gets farther than the JD.
The problem with the PhD is that if I were to get a PhD in social work, it would be largely useless. I mean, useless to ME because I don't want to be a professor of social work, and that's really all that PhDs do (in social work). So while it would probably be pretty darned easy for me to get a PhD in SW, I can't imagine doing it right now. (Although it's always in my brain as a possibility, because then I could do more research and less casework.)
The reason I was confused by your comment is because I had never heard anything so severe before. I have known a good handful of people who are in law school or have completed law school, and none of them have said that it's barely better than prison. It was a surprise to me.
And sure, I was pleased with a 4.0, but I was mostly amused that the MSW program was so easy. It was the most unchallenging education experience I've had after high school. It's not as if I have some sense of self wrapped into a 4.0, nor do I have a track record of it. (I'm not the sort of person that likes to blather about my GPA or test scores or whatever.)
So, whatever. It isn't likely to happen anyway, because I doubt I can afford to go to school full-time at any point in the future, and by the time I could, I'll likely never want to step foot in a school again. And who knows - maybe I'll become a social work professor someday. (Not.)
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timeasmymeasure
no subject
Date: 2003-10-13 02:49 pm (UTC)Her brother and sister-in-law are lawyers, so she's got pretty good first hand experience about how that all goes. And I've known a good number of people, yourself included, who have gone (or are going) to law school.
I really did blink a lot when I saw your response, though. Maybe I wasn't clear on what you meant. *shrug*
no subject
Date: 2003-10-13 03:19 pm (UTC)My mom went apeshit when, despite many mitigating circumstances, my law school GPA never rose above 2.7 in law school nevermind my almost perfect 5 years of undergrad and grad school before that. So I know it is important to *some* people (like my mom with 4 degrees including PhD at 4.0 P). I've seen too many first years crying in their beer over getting straight B's -- for getting any B at all-- for the first time *ever* (or since what 2nd grade when they stopped giving you S/U :P)
I still really don't think people should put themselves through law school unless they really need to. But I guess if one had instate tuition, a thick enough hide to have both faculty AND students denigrating you to your face, and three years to burn I guess it's better than say, prison ;) My school was apparently one of the best at public interest law stuff (in that they had a lot of classes, nationally respected profs and a student loan repayment scheme, etc) BUT there was only so much I could take of people telling me to my face that I was a second class person because public interest was "for losers who can't hack it in the real world". After that I got right back in their faces, and in the dean's face, but it was just waaaaay more nightmare than anyone should have to deal with! It was like junior high, only I was old enough to know that these people were utterly juvenile but yet SO disheartening to realise that adults could be "successful" in the eyes of the world and yet sooooo fucked in the head! This was before Dubya was President of course, or I'd not have been that surprised :P
(He really was a good governor. Little did we know that foreign policy was what we never should have let him play with!)
Then of course there was the ethics class when I would have to run out of the room to vomit because the "ethics" that are nationally mandated were so IMMORAL I couldn't stand it. Granted, most are things I'd never have to face, but some of the rules as they stand are just *sickening*. It scared me off trial advocacy for good.
(And in reality a lot of the work that I did for the firm here was pretty morally yuck, but we were just getting paid to make lame arguments on behalf of tobacco companies. Which on the whole moral judgement scale is not at the vomit level, esp as we knew the arguments wouldn't win anyway but they paid us to crank em out regardless.)
That said, law school in the UK rocks and is totally unlike anything in the US and I highly recommend it. I'd gladly go for another three years of it here.
But as far as advocacy, I went to law school because I really thought I could help with political issues and such. Unfortunately, it's the kids with the poly sci degrees and eighty million years of interning at the capitol that get the lobby jobs and/or get taken seriously at the helm of advocacy oganizations. People with law degrees get to be the lawyers for the lobbyists. :/ There is still ONE job out there that I would love to do, that does require a law degree and is in some way related to advocacy and improving the laws, but as far as I know that job only exists in Texas. In the social rights world, having a PhD in your field is probably going to gain you more than having a JD.
Obviously other areas of advocacy and lobbying will vary, but I've been involved with the EFF and EPIC for too long :/ I've seen lawyers leave EFF because there was only so much they could do but other people with other degrees could accomplish more and thus were a better use for organization funds.
So yeah, utlimately all of this is babble, but look into the *specific* types of groups you want to work with or emulate. When it gets to the level of swaying a judge or a congressperson, the PhD generally gets farther than the JD.
no subject
Date: 2003-10-20 08:32 am (UTC)The reason I was confused by your comment is because I had never heard anything so severe before. I have known a good handful of people who are in law school or have completed law school, and none of them have said that it's barely better than prison. It was a surprise to me.
And sure, I was pleased with a 4.0, but I was mostly amused that the MSW program was so easy. It was the most unchallenging education experience I've had after high school. It's not as if I have some sense of self wrapped into a 4.0, nor do I have a track record of it. (I'm not the sort of person that likes to blather about my GPA or test scores or whatever.)
So, whatever. It isn't likely to happen anyway, because I doubt I can afford to go to school full-time at any point in the future, and by the time I could, I'll likely never want to step foot in a school again. And who knows - maybe I'll become a social work professor someday. (Not.)