The race is long and, in the end, it's only with yourself.

[judecorp]

Don't be reckless with other people's hearts. Don't put up with people who are reckless with yours.

I need to figure out some way to be less anxious. I need to figure out some way for both Jennifer and myself to be less anxious, because our anxieties (is that a word?) are really setting each other's off and that's really dangerous. I keep having flashbacks to that summer where we put our relationship on hold to get our crap together, and they way we absolutely /had/ to do it because we were escalating each other higher and higher and higher until we were both so crazy. There has to be a better way to stop the cycle this time without taking a break, because I don't want to take a break, I don't want to run from this (even though it can be so, so tempting), and I /know/ there is a better way somewhere.

It's weird, but I know within five minutes of our interaction whether we're going to have a 'bad day' or not. We'll get into our first 'misunderstanding' within five-ten minutes and it will set off a whole day/night of problems of escalating intensity that will not end until we fall asleep and wake up the next day, clinging to each other and apologizing. That's not the greatest solution either - so we can't run away and we can't always go to bed.

I was reading something a friend wrote about being paranoid of becoming like her father. I am /so/ there. It used to be on a subconscious level but as I've become older and more self-aware it's very much at the forefront of all of my interactions. My father was very manipulative and abusive, and though he's mellowed significantly over the years, that pattern is really one of the only models of interpersonal interaction that I had in childhood. I remember the way I felt in every discourse, how low and hopeless and sad and angry. And now that I'm paranoid of being on the other side of that pattern, I keep looking for "clues" in the people I interact with.

Our life in Boston has been stressful, and that stress is really only starting to lessen now. We're quick to sad, and Jennifer is more demonstrative about this. So I'll see a flash of something, and I'll become convinced she's either very sad, or very angry at me. And then my head starts: Am I abusing her? I'm abusing her, aren't I? Oh god, I'm abusing her. This is terrible. She doesn't deserve this. No one deserves this. The best thing to do is leave. I need to leave her so she's not being abused. I'm an abuser. I don't deserve to exist, the way I treat people.

The worst part is that if I ever say any of these irrational thoughts out loud, the only thing that successfully happens is that she gets /more/ upset (and rightly so, if someone said these things to me I would probably freak). Obviously this 'proves' my thoughts and intensifies them. It gets so... BAD. Ugh, just thinking about it makes my stomach hurt. It's really ugly.

I was actually going to try to type out our interaction yesterday afternoon, and I can't. It's so convoluted and crazy. I can't even make enough sense of it to type it out, so I /know/ it's irrational. We just end up making assumptions about what the other one 'really' means, and react to that, and then argue with each other about what we meant, and then argue about how often we're arguing, and then I start thinking I'm an abuser and it all goes to hell.

Sometimes I think about asking my doctor about screening for anti-anxiety meds, but I'm so skeptical about so many of them because I wonder how much the drug companies aren't telling, and I worry about the side effects, and I'm so critical of myself that I want to 'fix' everything myself. Aside from that, I know it's not an everyday occurance so I don't want to take everyday medication. (I hate taking all medicine - I never take cold pills, rarely take OTC pain meds, etc.) I also don't want 'excessive worrying' to be another thing I worry about. You know? I really just want to find a way to end our cycle, because in reality, this 'abuser paranoia' doesn't come into play with interactions with anyone but Jennifer, and I know without a doubt that it's exacerbated by her own paranoias and patterns. So we really just need to figure out a way to stop all of this crap. And soon.

Don't worry about the future. Or worry, but know that worrying is as effective as trying to solve an algebra equation by chewing bubble gum. The real troubles in your life are apt to be things that never crossed your worried mind, the kind that blindside you at 4 p.m. on some idle Tuesday.

~Mary Schmich, The Chicago Tribune, 06-01-1997

Comments

[ullrsawah.livejournal.com]

I don't know useful this is your situation, but have you tried *consciously* forcing your brain into a different direction when one of your triggers gets tripped? it's not easy, not by a long shot, but I've found it useful.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Well, I'm working on it. Thirty years of a pattern is /quite/ a pattern, but I /am/ actively working on it. Otherwise I wouldn't even be at a place to write about it.

I actually think about it, consciously, every time we get into one of those situations. And sometimes I /can/ de-escalate the situation. But I've found that I am absolutely unable to do so when she is crying. Something about her crying totally sets me off, and the harder she is crying the worse it is (which also happens to be when she needs me the most, and when I feel the least inclined to be there because I work myself into how I shouldn't be there for her, blah blah blah). As long as she hasn't gotten to that place where she's /totally/ upset, I'm pretty good at redirecting.

[ullrsawah.livejournal.com]

good for you! I'm sure it doesn't feel like "enough," but you've made the important steps already. now, it's just a matter of time and communication. good luck!

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Thanks.

[juliann.livejournal.com]

Do either of you do meditation or calm, quiet relaxation on a regular (ie daily or almost daily) basis? That whole "empty your mind and think nothing" tooootally doesn't work for people whose brains jump into worry mode the moment you have any space to think, but I've found that guided meditation or even just laying down and listening to audiobooks gives my brain a bit of a breather from the constant cycles of worry and stress and makes me a little more able to sit back and de-stress.

Of course my therapist's response is just "So do it more often then" :P But after all it is a common first line of attack for anxiety and mental stress.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

You're so right when you talk about how some people cannot "think nothing." I am one of those people and I once took a meditation-type class that was very "think nothing" focused and I got SOOOO anxious that I had to stop. I would work myself up so hard trying to concentrate on nothing. Ugh, it was a mess.

Admittedly I don't do a heck of a lot in the ways of a relaxing ritual (like a bath or whatever), although the time I spend reading internet crap like LiveJournal after work is very relaxing and mind-clearing for me. I've noticed that we have less arguments when I've come home first, because then I've decompressed for a while and am more ready to be "social." That hour or so between when I come home from work and when she comes home from work is quite helpful. I come home from work earlier than her every day but Friday. Come to think of it, Friday afternoon (when I get home from work) is when we have a lot of misunderstandings - possibly because of this lack of down time, coupled with stress/tiredness from a long workweek. But I'm so excited to see her that I don't /want/ to go rot in front of the computer - I want to spend as much time with her as possible! So I'm not sure what to do about that.

Stuff to think about, that's for sure.

[juliann.livejournal.com]

I'd also suggest that you get Jen to agree to stop and tell you (even if it's the next dya when her head is more clear) when she thinks you are being abusive or manipulative. And then you just have to trust her to tell you and know that if she doesn't say anything you're not doing anything of that sort.

This will take time but feedback from Jen + more internal stability in you are pretty much the only things that will stop that particular paranoia. Of course there's the rest of your (both of you) worries, but maybe you can approach them in similar ways?

[ullrsawah.livejournal.com]

I second the above advice...both parts

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I've asked, and she always says (when I've asked) that she doesn't find me abusive or whatever. And when we're not /in/ an argument, I totally believe her. I mean, I look back on the situations and don't find them abusive (mostly). But I definitely don't always 'trust' her to tell me if I was (trust being the wrong word but I don't know what else fits, yanno? more like, she would know it would upset me so would keep it to herself, or more likely, pin it on herself), especially when I'm totally upset.

I don't really have a lot of (recurrent) worries outside of this. I mean, sometimes I have worries like "will there be enough money for car repairs?" or "I hope it's not serious" (when someone is sick), but those are pretty "normal" things, I think. There really isn't anything I can think of that I recurrently worry about. But I'll think about it.

[juliann.livejournal.com]

A problem that came up when chasing_amy was looking at this issue (she had an abusive husband but had been told SHE was the abusive one...how typical is that...) and it helped to sit down and list what behaviours she thought were abusive (from eithr of them), then compare with some detailed/comprehensive checklists or warning signs lists of abusive behavior. Of course there we have to really urge her to look at motive, as her punishing her husband for things he did was not some whim or control issue -- the man was cheating on her so fair enough if she made him sleep on the couch if he hadn't come home until 6 am. I'm just using that to illustrate that the reasons behind the behaviour are equally important to the behaviour itself. As you've said, sometimes you do things that are more hurtful because you think it's better for her/what she wants. But the ONLY way I can think of to resolve the issue of your perception of her needs/best interests and her perception of her needs/best interests is to find a way to open a dialogue in a way that you can believe her and know that she has thought about it and isn't reacting out of emotion and where you can ask her "what about this or that?" when neither of you are acting from high emotion.

Without that communication, belief in her abilities to know how she feels and trust in her to come to you if something really is wrong, I don't see this going away.

What I do see is your fears being more of problem than the actual reality. But until she can allay those fears, I don't know if there is much you can do. But you have to believe her and trust her when she's allying them, and not dismiss her statements as designed to protect you. (So she has to be scrupulously honest and not hide things out of fear that you will want to walk away -- if she does have that fear that you will leave if she is honest/perceives herself to be demanding, then it's your job to allay THAT fear).

In all it's a pretty classic relationship dilemma, and one that is emminently solvable, but it will require a lot of work on both parts. But increasing your trust, faith and belief and feeling safe and secure enough to be honest about problems will serve you both well in the decades to come, so it's not like you're working on it just to deal with this one issue, but to take your relationship to the next level altogether.

However I am still concerned about the "within ten minutes" you may be arguing. That says to me that you both are bottling things up and/or have underlying problems that aren't being dealt with properly. Probably because you think they are too small to deserve attention. That's how irritability grows, from having a lot of unresolved little niggly things. It becomes a habit or pattern, which is why I suggested the meditation.

However there can be physiological reasons for irritability (and I don't mean PMS particularly, since a woman generally knows she's PMS'ing if not that day but the next). If you want I can pull up a list of possible problems (many of which are as simple as mineral deficiency, lack of sleep, etc.) for you to look over and see if any of those might be contributing. But I think there's a need for some general stress-busting and relaxation and while playing with 2 year olds is pretty exhausting I'm not sure if you are getting any regular exercise that might offer some relief like back when you were in kick-boxing. So that too might be something to consider, even just doing some kind of exercise videos together (most dvd rental places have plenty) to let off some of the looming/background steam.

Chin up, Mama, this isn't a task that is too big for you! You can doooo it!

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

There's so much to answer here, I don't know where to start! I guess I'll start with the parts that stick out in my mind the most first.

I don't think we argue "within ten minutes" because of bottled up things, at least around each other. Because most days when she comes home, we don't argue at all, let alone after ten minutes. That seems to be a Friday phenomenon, and a bit of exaggeration (I'm thinking of one Friday where it was several hours later, in the car during bad weather and particularly crappy driving). I /do/ notice bottled-up things, however, when Jen gets particularly upset. Sometimes there's a tendency to wait until the middle of some sort of disagreement to blurt out some thing that's either been building or is from a while before. I find that pretty overwhelming and we've talked about it before, and I'm sure I've done it too. (Don't you just love when something doesn't bother you until you're upset about something else?) I can't speak for her on this one but I can't think of anything I'm particulary irritable about (regarding her) at the moment that has never been brought up. I'd say I'm pretty good at getting my irritabilities out there when they're irritating me, especially since /not/ doing that was one trait of A's that I particularly disliked.

And you're right that I'm not getting a lot of exercise aside from running after toddlers all day (and I do come home totally exhausted most days after dealing with kids AND parents AND driving around), and it's something I have been researching and trying to think of the best way. We're going to have a little more money in January so it might be possible to pay the start-up fee at a gym then. (I can't really do exercise videos in the house - well, except maybe yoga - because I'm on the third floor with hardwood floors, and I'm sure my downstairs neighbor would /love/ me doing aerobics over his head! ;) I've found a gym that's fairly reasonably priced, is close to me, and has a nice assortment of classes - so I'm just trying to pull in the funds.

I guess one of the reasons I really worry is that sometimes when Jen is upset, she will make sweeping statements like "You're not supportive of me," or "You don't compromise," that she apologizes for later as exaggerations or things she doesn't really mean. But even with those apologies, I still worry about them. It's weird, because I hadn't worried about it at all until she said it, and now even though it was said /months/ ago, I think about it. "Do I really want everything my own way? I feel like I compromise. Do I compromise?" Even though she actively tells me that she should have never said that because it's not true, it's in my head. In my mind, not compromising ever and not being supportive ever are pretty abusive. (Maybe not in terms of pure pathology but definitely bad relationship material.) So then I panic about them. You see? It's not like I sit around thinking of things, but I sure do obsess about them when they come up.

I'd love for her to actually sit down on a day when we're not misunderstanding each other or overly stressed out and talk to me about things I may be doing that bother her. Because hearing about them when she's upset or frustrated both make them sound so much worse and lend themselves to exaggeration. I know that when I'm frustrated is when I'm mostly likely to say, "You /never/ clean X, Y, or Z," when the reality is that she just didn't get around to it this time.

Part of the problem of course is my need to be perfect, so anything that I perceive to be less than perfect in my own behavior gets blown up in my own mind. I just think so highly of her and want her to have everything /so/ /much/ that when I think she isn't getting the best, I get overly critical of myself. On good days I have no problem seeing how I try very hard and am a pretty good partner. It's just that when those other days come, I make them much bigger than they are because I'm so disappointed in myself.

[juliann.livejournal.com]

BTW when I said about little unresolved things building up into an irritable ness, I didn't really mean stuff related to the relationship. Indeed, for most people it's just those random I-accidentally-got-decaf sorts of things, really too inconsequential to do anything about but over time might build up into background stress.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Oh, okay. I misunderstood.

I often come home from work not irritated, but harried. I spend all day running around and processing 878432789427 bits of information for a ton of different families, and I get home and really just need to shut down for a while. It's like I am /so/ not on my best behavior, not by a long shot, because I'm still mentally driving all over town, dodging potholes, returning phone calls, keeping up with paperwork, completing assessments, remembering to drop off toys, arranging co-visits, preparing for playgroup, and whatever the heck else I've been doing all day. :)

[kieron.livejournal.com]

Maybe I am not normal...but I don't think that Jude is abusive. I don't think she has been.

She may be insenstive in my opinion - or annoyed or whatever....but I have never EVER thought her abusive. Ever. If I did I don't think I could say "hey you are being abusive"...I would just be gone because I can't do that sort of thing. And that isn't the person I know Jude to be so it isn't an issue.

Jude is her own worst critic. She may freak out and we may disagree, but I freak out as well and I am pig headed and unthinking and say stupid shit all the time.

We both are only human as I try to show her.

So hey...my $.02.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

It's easy to be critical when I want you to have perfection, because you deserve perfection.

[kieron.livejournal.com]

I know you want the absolute best for me.

To me you are the absolute best - with enough salt to remind me of how truly sweet our love and life is.

I want you to have perfection - but I am not perfect....and while I strive for my very best I know I can never be perfect I can only try very hard at my best. What make sme upset is when you punish yourself either in self opinion or whatever to the point of saying really horrible things about the most important person in my life. When you say things like how you shouldn't be here or even exist - that freaks *me* out beyond comprehension and I am no help to either of us in those moments of extreme emotion.

I have no fear that you don't love me or taht you won't be there for me. I know you will always be tehre fore me and love me unless *you* take yourself out of the equation for what you perceive is my best interests.

I think you should allow me to judge what is best or not best for me....and cut yourself some slack.

I say and do stupid things that hurt you - that continue to hurt you way after the heat of the moment - weeks even....and I don't mean those things the way they come out - they just come out *because* it's the heat of the moment and they seem so much more intense in those moments...

I am sorry for those things and I try not to get caught up in that shit - but you should believe me when I am sane and calm and coherant - not when I am ranting and crazy.

Really.

WE do have stuff to work out - every couple does. We will have arguments from time to time - hopefully less in the future than we do now. We will disagree - but we will not stop loving or caring or wanting the best for each other. I am confident in this.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I don't know if you understand that I don't disbelieve you. When you tell me that I am good to you, I believe it, because we are in a good place at that time and I can see it. And when you tell me in whatever words that I am not good to you, I believe it, because we are in an emotional place at that time and I can see it.

It's not that I believe one time over another, it's that I believe everything at that time. It's easy to think that I only believe the bad, but really, that's just what comes up in arguments. You only think of me believing the bad because you, too, tend to remember what happens during arguments over the calmer stuff.

Perhaps this is a fault of mine, but honestly I don't want to cut myself slack because I don't want to slack off in my treatment of you. Some people may think some slack is inevitable but really, I want to hold you as highly as I did the day we fell in love, and I will consider nothing less.

I know I need to find a way to cut out some of the negative talk, and I really have tried (and I think I have succeeded to some degree, at least in frequency). I just don't know how /not/ to let your sadness affect me so severely.

[juliann.livejournal.com]

I'm starting to see (mostly from Jude's last comment to me) that actually the semantics of this discussion are all ... em... Judified.

What's happeniing is that she sees certain behaviours as bad/damaging/whatever you want to call it. She fears that she is engaging in those behaviours, and that fear makes her fear that she is being a bad partner.

Pretty much everything that I've said still applies, but take away the very emotionally charged terminology.

A) Destressing is good. Through this disucssion she's identified the Friday afternoon issue and that is one possibility for immediate action, if she chooses to do it. But in the longer term, exercise, relaxation and other de-stressing activities are good for everyone, so I still think it's a good recomendation.

B) More communication, belief and trust are needed. Again, this is generally true of any relationship. It could be that behaviours she sees as destructive are not really that big of a deal. It could be that she doesn't do the behaviours she is accusing herself of. Or it could be that she's not getting the feedback she needs to be able to trust HERSELF (ie that what she is doing is OK). Please note I'm not remotely talking about blame here -- this is just one of the many things that has to be done periodically; just stop and make sure everyone's on the same page and if they are not, get to a page together. Just consider it good practice for when you have teenagers ;)

I think you both have some habits that you've developed in your recent times of stress and that you can both agree are things that should be improved. But I also really do think that it's as simple as eliminating any excess (unrelated) tension and talking through things and looking for ways to improve together. Of course, this paragraph applies to just about every couple at any point in their relationship and this is but one small hiccup of many to be resolved and then forgotten as you grow together.

Best wishes to you both :)

[jadefu.livejournal.com]

As part/related to my bipolar, I have major anxiety issues. I hate taking drugs, but I have to take them every day. And I acknowledge that I do a hell of a lot better with them.

That being said, the drugs don't fix things 100%. Things still trigger my mood. I've found ways to relax--my stitching and beading are #1, actually. So there are plenty things you CAN do to improve your mood and anxiety yourself without drugs.

But then, don't be scared of the drugs that are out there. It wouldn't hurt to talk to a shrink if trying to fix things yourself doesn't seem to work. Taking something for a short period of time might be enough to get you over the hump.....then you stop. There's a lot more people that take psychiatric drugs for short periods than have to take them forever.

Give me a call if you want to talk more about it, k?

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Don't get me wrong, I'm not anti-psych-meds. I know that they can be quite successful for some people and that they can be used effectively and all of that. And it's not something that I haven't considered if it's necessary. I'd really just rather not /if possible/. Not because of something about psych meds but about my issues with medicines in general. I hate taking them. And I do worry about side effects, especially when Jen was pretty sick and taking a bunch of meds, and then meds for the side effects of meds, and blah - that's a lot of meds.

I /am/ trying to find alternate ways to relax, especially now that we're in a more stable situation with two jobs and all of that. I joined a book club that I'm excited about (even if I've been slacking on the book), I e-mailed an agency about a volunteer opportunity, I'm comparing gym prices, I've started journaling again, etc. And it /is/ helping. Between that and the stability, we're in a much better place than we had been when we moved. I'm just impatient. :)

Re: taking drugs for a short time - I'm leery of that, just because I have several close friends who took anti-depressants for short times and have had or are having /hellacious/ times coming off of them. That scares me.

[bellabooks.livejournal.com]

*HUGS*

I hope that you know that you're normal and that we all deal with similar feelings. For Olex and I, I'm always the one who walks away when we start bickering. And we *always* start bickering when we're both tired, thinking about work, or when I'm nagging him to clean SOMETHING, ANYTHING (I'm sure everyone's had one of those conversations!). I've actually never tried to stick it out, I just hate the snowball effect. And quite frankly, my parents never fought around me, and I'm an only child - so I'm not a very good argue-er. My defense is to just go to a different room and ground myself (in a good way) for a few minutes (2 hours, whatever). Once we're both detached from the situation, it's always so much easier to see why the fight began in the first place.
I guess that my advice would be to take that hour to yourself on Fridays. Wouldn't you rather have one less hour of Jennifer time, but instead have *good* Jennifer time?
I've seen you together, and I think you guys have a lot of love and a great relationship. Don't lose hope!
*HUGS*
(and thanks for the Christmas Card!)

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I just don't want us to argue, ever. Even though it's totally unrealistic. I just have that idea in my head of having a relationship with no difficulties because our love is so strong. You know?

I've always had totally unrealistic views of relationships because I didn't have many good role models. It wasn't until fairly recently that I was able to parallel couplehoods to family relations, and that was actually a /big/ help in how I see my marriage. Which is a good thing. I'm just a slow learner I guess.

Ideally, I would be the 'walk-away'-er too, but Jen doesn't like it when I do that. She likes to try to talk things out right away. I don't think that entirely works for me, and I really think that one of the reasons things escalate is that we /should/ be walking away, but I don't know how to effectively walk away when she wants to keep discussing. It's always been a problem of ours, one we haven't been able to solve yet. But there's lots of time.

(You're welcome for the card. Thank you for YOUR card and the one for the cats was so cute!)

[exoteris.livejournal.com]

k'damn, my man.

You asked me yesterday what sparked the not eating, and it was clear you were asking whether it was the influence of the Magnificent H Bomb (and why shouldn't it be, since it's all I ever talk about? I admit it Obsessed).

But I tell you whut:

My dad is one of the big obese people.
My dad is one of the great abusers.
My dad is one who I do not want to be.
It's an association. I have the big big fear.

So. Yeah. I've been through the ringer, the exploratory self surgery on a daily basis. I make errors of judgement in the form of overcorrection, I fail to let go when my grip is the cause of strife. I dunno. It's all messed up sometimes when the solutions and the problems end up in the same silver scrabble bag. It's wack.

No sage words of advice, just solidarity. Faith, trust and pixie dust.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

You know you're one of my favorites, right?

Last night I thought maybe I was teasing you too much about H. and I got kind of self-conscious about it. So if I am teasing you too much, please tell me to stop. It's just so cute because you are gushing, and maybe instead of teasing I should just tell you how cute it is.

I can't imagine you ever as anything but a kind and gentle soul. I just don't see anything else in you. You are Good People. Even Kim Deal thinks so. (She told me!)

[exoteris.livejournal.com]

Not too much at all. And I would tell you, but I would never have to.
You are too wonderful. And you know Kim! totally invite me over when she's there, I'll be all, "hey there.. oh I didn't realize you had company.."

SMOOV.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Dude, that's the smoovest line I've heard all year! You are the Mack Daddy of Smoove.

[folkyboy.livejournal.com]

wow i completely empathize with this! i have fears of becoming just like my father too and becoming paranoid that i am walking around on eggshells around a person. i think you and Jenn are so great together, though, that you totally will be able to work it out under close observation. you are too cognizant of what's going on for you not to...

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

I hope you're right. But you only see the parts I write online... I could be a total basket case offline and YOU'D NEVER KNOW!! ;)

[folkyboy.livejournal.com]

haha i think i could know :P it's not like we don't hang out. (though not as much as i want to)

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Even when we hang out, you still only hear what I tell. Sometimes I think I only tell half the story. :)