Survivor grrrr
Oct. 13th, 2005 09:43 pm![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png)
We used to be big Stephenie fans in our house, but today she busted out the forbidden "that's so gay" to describe another player's stupid behavior and that's it - she's out of our fan club.
Sayonara, Stephenie. You and your homophobic whininess can leave Guatemala at any time. We'll start rooting for Amy instead.
Sayonara, Stephenie. You and your homophobic whininess can leave Guatemala at any time. We'll start rooting for Amy instead.
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Date: 2005-10-14 01:35 am (UTC)totally insensitive i'll give you, but i wouldn't say that it's usage necessarily assumes a fear or loathing of homosexuals. you could be right, or it could just be ignorance.
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Date: 2005-10-14 01:42 am (UTC)When I was a little kid, we said, "That's so queer" around here. (Well, more like 'queah' but you know.) When I realized that 'queer' was an actual word and it referred to queer people, I stopped using it because I didn't want to be that person.
I'm not saying that everyone who says, "That's so gay" is going to beat up queers on the street corner, but it /is/ a homophobic remark. It equates 'gay' with 'stupid' and if that's not homophobic, I don't know what is. Stephenie was implying, through her words, that being gay is bad. Otherwise she wouldn't be using it as an insult against Bobby Jon.
Whether you personally associated 'that's so gay' with homosexuality, the word gay .is. associated. Which is why, really, the insult came into being - being homosexuality was something to insult people with.
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Date: 2005-10-14 01:53 am (UTC)KWIM?
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Date: 2005-10-14 03:22 am (UTC)I can't believe this has become such a huge discussion.
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Date: 2005-10-14 02:20 am (UTC)We used to play a free-form tackle football when I was little, where the object was to tackle whoever had the football. We called it "smear the queer," though I don't think any of us knew the concept or what the word meant at that point, at least not in the homosexuality concept.
That said, if I heard a player call an opponent "gay" or "queer" during a football game, I would penalize him for unsportsmanlike conduct. Why? The reasonable perception would be that he was using it as an insult, which would equate it to racist/sexist language, which is specifically prohibited. I'm the same way with the word "nigger," regardless of who says it to whom, because of the variability with how it can be interpreted.
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Date: 2005-10-14 02:44 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-14 03:04 am (UTC)But when a college says "queer studies" and when a person says "smear the queer," they definitely mean two different things!
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Date: 2005-10-14 03:07 pm (UTC)That's where the words differ though; "queer" definitely has legitimate meanings and depends on usage. Unless someone's really out of it, people know I'm not being derogatory when I suggest during a meeting that a client might be more comfortable going to therapy at a queer-centered clinic.
The N-word just doesn't have any instances in which it's the appropriate term to use. I think we can safely say that it just shouldn't be used.
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Date: 2005-10-14 05:15 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-15 02:54 am (UTC)I don't think it's been reclaimed, either, even if persons of color do use it to refer to one another.
As for the usage point, I agree. Suggesting that someone might be more comfortable at "a queer-centered clinic" is helpful and positive. Suggesting that they might try a specific clinic because "they specialize in you queer people" is not, IMHO, since the "you" implies that the speaker is not queer and is instead normal/superior.
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Date: 2005-10-14 03:11 am (UTC)I don't think that many kids know what the term "smear the queer" really means when they are playing the game. However, I really do think that the person who coined the phrase did. S/he could just have easily called it some other rhyming name. After all, 'smear' isn't a word that gets used all that often these days.
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Date: 2005-10-14 02:31 am (UTC)There exists a saying "That's so gay" which means something is stupid. Yes, it was originally developed because of homophobic sentiment and it is neither a pleasant expression or a sensitive expression.
But it exists and, right now, it doesn't have much to do with being gay.
Was Steph actually making a specifically homophobic comment against Bobby Jon? I don't know because I haven't seen that episode so can't comment on it but, from your context, I'm guessing that she was just calling him stupid.
So, she's calling him stupid and not calling his sexuality into question or attacking him because of his sexuality. She's using a phrase that originated from homophobic sentiment but is not necessarily used to express homophobia. Kinda dumb on national TV? Yeah. Actively homophobic? I think not.
Let's look at some other expressions with offensive origins:
'Cotton picking hands' (That stalwart of cartoons) Offensive reference to african americans.
'Gyp' - (To cheat someone) Racist - Egyptian/Arab or Gypsy in origin (I can't recall)
Phrases exist beyond their original intent and often pass into language with their secondary meaning - although some thought may uncover their origins. I didn't really think much about either of the two above because I learnt them in context and took their second meaning as my first. I don't use either of them anymore because I try to be sensitive in my language use. However, if I run across someone else using them then I try and work out if they are a racist fuck or whether they're just using old words with their new meanings.
Steph shouldn't have said it because of the risk of insulting people - no argument.
She is, however, up to her arse in mosquitoes, sweat, dirt and idiots so if she used something for its second (and widely accepted) meaning without thinking about its origins that doesn't necessarily mean that she's a homophobe. She may just have been careless in her use of language.
Of course, it's your call and, from the strident nature of your "One Strike And You're OUT" language rule, I'm guessing that you'll continue to consider her a homophobe because this is "a bridge too far" for you
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Date: 2005-10-14 03:18 am (UTC)2. There are certainly a number of words (like "gyp" and "cotton picking" that you mention, along with "paddywagon" and "pardon my french") that are used every day that really have throwbacks to certain races or groups. As far as I'm concerned, not knowing where the expression comes from is only an excuse for so long. When I hear someone in my day-to-day life using an expression like "gyp" or "paddywagon," I always go out of my way to explain where the word comes from and why I would like it not to be used around me.
3. Was she specifically knocking his sexuality or calling him stupid? My initial answer is, "Who cares? If she wanted to just call him stupid she could have used the word 'stupid.' But that's not what she chose to do." However, there was more of the conversation that was broadcast and it's true that it could have been edited in a certain way to make her look bad, but she made several references to Bobby Jon "cheering like a girl" (rubbing a victory in her face) which is why "he's so gay." I would say that given the two comments together, it's doubtful to me that there was no reference to his sexuality implied there.
4. But it exists and, right now, it doesn't have much to do with being gay.
Right now, it has /everything/ to do with being gay. The expression continues to live on as an insult SPECIFICALLY because being gay still has negative connotations in our society. If it didn't have anything to do with being gay, people would move on to a new term.
5. I think people are jumping to conclusion that I specifically think this TV character is a homophobe or that she hates queers. I have no clue about that. I specifically mentioned her whininess, and the whining was homophobic (as in, what she chose to whine about, namely Bobby Jon).
6. All I can say is that I guess you don't know me very well, not at all.
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Date: 2005-10-14 05:05 am (UTC)I appear to have done so, from point 6. Well, I went to great pains to qualify my answer with things like 'based on context' and 'I haven't seen this episode' but you seem to have ignored that but, regardless, I didn't mean to offend you and I'm sorry if I did. For reference, you've pissed me off pretty badly but let's go through my answer to this message.
Let me answer your points in turn:
1. If she's only a TV character why even bother posting about it with an accusation of homophobia? That's a cop-out, Jude. You showed interest in her and I responded to that.
2. I agree with this. I try to do the same thing but you have to recognise ignorance over deliberate attempts to antagonise.
3. I HAVEN'T SEEN THIS EPISODE. Had you put this context in then I would have responded differently. The entire damn world doesn't live in the US, or on the US broadcast schedule, so we have to work out what LJers are thinking from the context that they provide. In this context, yeah, she's calling him effeminate and potentially equating that with being gay. That's completely different from the original interpretation and it's completely unacceptable. I'm not a mind reader.
4. I disagree with you. You're gay and you see it as an insult. I'm not gay and I don't see it being used to explicitly tie those things together anymore. I don't know if there is any correlation between those two - that's just where we both are. I think that the phrase has moved on - it's still offensive but it's moved on to meaning 'dumb/stupid'. This has nothing to do with the accuser or victim being gay or being seen to be gay. Words retain usage well beyond their original meanings. "That's sick" means "that's cool" in Australian teen slang. It's effectively back slang using reversed meaning but we still have the usage of sick (perverted) and sick (ill) while maintaining a third.
5. Oh, come on. You posted, and I quote:
We used to be big Stephenie fans in our house, but today she busted out the forbidden "that's so gay" to describe another player's stupid behavior and that's it - she's out of our fan club.
Sayonara, Stephenie. You and your homophobic whininess can leave Guatemala at any time. We'll start rooting for Amy instead.
So it's just her whininess that's homophobic? Now there's a wonderful legal defence - my whininess went and robbed a bank. Well, why are you telling her to leave Guatamala? I don't buy this level of dissembling.
6. Well, I really didn't mean to offend you and I obviously did so I guess that I don't. But, to be frank, this level of vicious reply when I was trying to explore the post within the context you sent doesn't sit with who I thought you were either. Plus this is a nasty little piece of spite to put at the bottom of a message - "You don't know me at all!" which invalidates everything I could say.
Pretty low and fairly offensive.
No problem, Jude. I won't bother replying to anything else on your LJ. Feel free to respond to this, since you should have the right to reply, and I'll read it. Beyond replies to this post I think it would be easier if we just decided not to cause each other offence.
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Date: 2005-10-14 11:50 am (UTC)I was awake a pretty significant portion of last night thinking about the discussion that blew up in this post - a post that was tongue-in-cheek about a television show that I happen to like a lot - a discussion that seems to center more about my problems for being offended rather than the character's 'problems' (to use the same word only) for making the remark. It reminds me of all of those times when my grandmother would say really blunt and hurtful things to people (e.g. "You're getting so fat") and then scoff and say they were "too sensitive" when their feelings were hurt. Regardless.
I don't identify as gay, and the word doesn't have any personal or symbolic meaning to me. In my vocabulary, "gay" refers specifically to homosexual men. I know that there are many other 'definitions' for the term, in fact, my wife is known to use "gay" to mean any sort of person who is not straight, something we have had several discussions about throughout our time together. The comment didn't upset me because I'm gay, because I'm not. It upset me because it's hurtful.
I'm aware that you didn't see the episode and I wrote the entry more for myself and anyone who might have seen it. I wasn't really looking for some sort of huge flame war or whatever and I'm actually quite surprised that it "went there." I added the context in my comment to you so that you /would/ have more background, since I knew that you hadn't seen the show and wanted to give you more information. But the purpose of my post wasn't really to educate the public on what Steph said about Bobby Jon /or/ to talk about the evils of "that's so gay," it was just a stupid tongue-in-cheek post about a ridiculous television show. Gah.
"If it's only a television show, why write about it?" Well, I write about Survivor all the time. It's the only TV show I watch with any regularity and I really enjoy it. I know that several people on my friends list also watch it and it has made for some good goofing in the past. I didn't write a lot partially because it didn't mean that much to me and also because I didn't want to include spoilers from people who hadn't seen the ep yet. That's all.
As for anything else, it seems like this has been on ridiculous misunderstanding brought about by lack of intonation and facial features on the internet. I'm not upset with you, and I never was - just a little sting at the end - though you may feel differently and that's cool, too. I'm sorry if this means you'll never comment again or whatever, because that would be a loss to me, but it's certainly your right and I would respect that 100%. It's really up to you if you'd like to proceed with this discussion, whether here or in e-mail.
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Date: 2005-10-16 05:50 am (UTC)I didn't, and don't, believe that you treat everyone with a 'one strike, you're out' rule. That's what I was getting from your post, for the situation you posted about, from the use of the adjective 'forbidden' but I didn't mean this message to apply to your life or general beliefs.
I suppose that the use of language as a divisive tool, even when it's people commenting on TV people, rubs me up the wrong way but I didn't express this properly.
I think that, now, other people have put across information on this thread that says what I wanted to say but without getting their non-gender-specific underwear in a knot like I did. :)
Yeah - this was a crazy place to get to. I'm not upset with you and I'll be hassling your LJ again in the future.
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Date: 2005-10-14 02:31 am (UTC)the boy that i am dating is jewish, but i am usually saying it to him and he usually retorts with some comment about my blond hair and blue eyes.
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Date: 2005-10-14 03:05 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-14 02:38 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-14 03:06 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-14 03:11 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-14 03:23 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-14 02:43 am (UTC)i mean, i realize that it is now used to mean "gay", but wasn't that usage adopted long after the word was as a benign descriptor? is it no longer appropriate to use "queer" in it's original form or is it just assumed that it's a gay reference in any context?
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Date: 2005-10-14 02:46 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-14 03:08 am (UTC)I think it's perfectly appropriate to use "queer" or "gay" in their original contexts. Neither of which were 'stupid' or 'crappy.'
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Date: 2005-10-14 02:40 am (UTC)Also, our camp agrees: Go Amy!
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Date: 2005-10-14 03:09 am (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-14 04:06 am (UTC)As for her comment, it bothered me too. I hate it when people say that. It is so common too - I hear it all the time, especially the state I live in. I try not to let it bother me when I hear it but it does and whenever I think of that person it's always there in the back of my mind - me thinking they said that. I can understand how it would really bother you.
Growing up the kids used to say it all the time. I'm pretty sure I used to say that all the time as well because you know when you are young and it seems like that's just the thing to do. If only I knew then what I know now.
Is Amy the older lady who got shown getting mowed over by a rock? That looked like it hurt!
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Date: 2005-10-14 12:33 pm (UTC)We've had the discussion before about words like "nigger" or slander-intended "gay" being wrong or right, and you've cited a cultural take-back concept which makes it somehow acceptable for people it was intended to harm using it while others can't, and I didn't agree with you then, so this is kind of related. I'm just a big believer in if the word's "bad" then it's "bad" no matter who says it. However, in support of my above dialog, I also hold that mere utterance of a word does not necessarily include a racially or culturally bigoted charge.
In conclusion; I'm sorry your in-laws forgot to send you a birthday card and I hope that if you and Jen do wind up moving to Florida that you'll remember you've both got a boy in Alabama who would totally dig seeing you both again. (P.S. That boy is me.)
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Date: 2005-10-14 01:53 pm (UTC)Now, where I come from, niggardly DOES mean stingy, and gosh darnit, that's the dictionary definition and the teacher wasn't being racist by teaching the dictionary definition of the word. But she was slapped with the 'racist' label anyway.
I think it's perfectly acceptable to say that Stephenie was insensitive (and by the way, I did see the episode) by using that phrase, and she definitely intended to cast aspersions on Bobby Jon's manliness by it, which was wrong. I just think Stephenie was completely in the wrong here every which way you slice it. But I think it's premature to call her a homophobe.
She was frustrated, she was upset, she was angry. She's tired of losing and she's in a highly stressful situation. People say stuff sometimes. Sometimes, the stuff people say is STUPID. And while I totally support Jude's right to not support Stephenie anymore (hah, because I'm not either, I'm now rooting for Brian) I just think that it devalues the weight of the term 'homophobe' if we start applying it to everybody regardless of what their true intent was.
The sad fact is, 'That's so gay' has become a part of our language today, and it probably doesn't help that lots of gay people use the term as a way to reclaim it. Reclaiming sometimes backfires. It makes other casual observers who may not really understand what's going on think that it's okay for anybody to use it.
Anyway, in short, I caught it when Stephenie said it, I lost a lot of respect for her, but I don't think we have enough evidence to call her a 'homophobe' - and GO BRIAN! :)
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Date: 2005-10-14 05:29 pm (UTC)Just for the record (and I like Brian, too), "gay" was used by the gay community before it was used as an insult. So I don't see gay people calling themselves gay as reclaiming the term. Other words /were/ first used as insults, like "dyke" or "queer" or pansy" or "faggot," and some people use them to reclaim them, but I don't think that's true of "gay."
"That's so gay" seems to be a fairly recent (10 years or less) phenomenon, but I could be wrong about that.
p.s. I think that Burnett is really editing this season to bring favor away from Stephenie and I don't know why. I bet that a lot of players say insensitive and ignorant remarks all the time, but this season's editors are really trying to portray Steph negatively. HOWEVER, she was foolish enough to say those things in front of cameras, and now her "slip-up" on national prime-time television is going to in a lot of ways validate the use of the term across the country. Sad but true, tv characters are role models in our society.
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Date: 2005-10-14 05:33 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2005-10-17 12:36 am (UTC)Ugh.
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Date: 2005-10-14 05:25 pm (UTC)I just want to reiterate that I didn't call her a homophobe, I mentioned her "homophobic whininess," which was directly referring to the homophobic remarks she made while she was whining on television. I have no clue whether or not she's homophobic in her real life (and I'll assume she's not) and it wasn't really the point of my post. I was merely stating that I was no longer rooting for Stephenie on ths season of Survivor because she chose to use a homophobic insult against another player to try to downgrade his manhood. That's not only poor judgment, but also poor sportsmanship.
I don't think "gay" is a cultural take-back, but "queer" and "dyke" definitely are, since they were both used as insults first. The use of "gay" as an insult really only came around after people startin calling themselves gay.
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Date: 2005-10-14 01:40 pm (UTC)Oh and when I was in school, we said "that's so queer" and "that's gay" and we sure the hell didn't mean "weird" or "strange." It still slips out once in awhile and I punch myself in the head for it. I know that I don't mean anything by it, but I don't want someone else to feel like their homophobia was validated by my stupid slip-up.
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Date: 2005-10-14 05:20 pm (UTC)I know that when I said, "You're queah" to people on the playground, I sure wasn't calling them strange. Not at all. And while I'm not proud to admit it, I at least can without trying to make myself feel better by talking about how the definition has changed over time or use. We meant "you're a homo" and we didn't mean it in a nice way.