Just apologize, dude. For REALZ.

[judecorp]

Okay, this is annoying. It's a total pet peeve of mine. Or really, more than a pet peeve. It's something that I get really REALLY angry about.

Pope sorry for reaction to his remarks.

I don't care if you are the Pope or whoever, you do NOT apologize for someone else's reaction. You apologize for your mistake, or your action, or your decision, or YOUR anything. "Apologizing" for someone's reaction or feelings is not apologizing at all!

I would feel a lot better if the article said, "Pope sorry for words spoken during oration," or something like that. Instead we get:

"At this time I wish also to add that I am deeply sorry for the reactions in some countries to a few passages of my address at the University of Regensburg, which were considered offensive to the sensibility of Muslims," the pope said Sunday.

Few things irritate me more than when someone "apologizes" to me saying, "I'm sorry you're hurt/sad/upset." I tend to snap back, "Please don't apologize for me." I just can't stand it.

Way to victim blame, Pope.

Comments

[00solstice.livejournal.com]

I agree. Such apologies tend to be passive-aggressive. He might as well have anonymously sent them a book on anger management.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Clearly he needs to do that. I suggest a book entitled, How to Not Get Your Feelings Hurt By a Kind Of Rude Speech.

You know, I think I really missed out on something by never thinking of this anonymous book idea. I mean, it could really catch on. I'm going to start scouring yard sales for quality passive-aggression material.

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

M and I just had a really good conversation about this (not about the fake apology). I also do not think his apology was adequate, and I thought ...well, a lot of stuff, which was crystallized during our debate (we do that a lot) but yeah. I mostly agree with you here.

My pet peeve with apologies is mainly centered around phrasing such as:

I'm sorry IF I blah blah.

Like, clearly if my feelings are hurt, you DID BLAH BLAH. Say, "I'm sorry THAT I blah blah" and it instantly sounds more sincere. Your peeve sounds a touch different, but I get it. =)

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I can totally see what you're saying on the "if" thing, too. There's no "if" about it, if someone is hurt then they are hurt. I agree.

I haven't even had a good chance to really look into what's BEHIND the apology (as in, exactly what happened, how it was said, the context, etc.) but I was just so turned off by the headline. Argh!

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

Well, basically your pope is a scholar and not a people person. He goes to turkey, and makes a well meaning speech about how a philosopher/Emperor of Byzantium said THIS about Muslims, where THIS is that it is a wicked and cruel faith.

Unfortunately his publicist never read it and distilled it into the headline of: Pope calls Islam cruel and wicked faith, which is distilled into the word of mouth of "Pope denounces Islam."

Sigh. It was a truly stupid thing to say. He intended something different. Go look on the beeb for the real text thereof, I read it this morning during our little debate.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I actually looked and saw a little of it, and I can see how it kind of snowballed or whatever. Which of course it was going to. It doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that, you know? Someone should know better.

Sometimes I think people like to say hurtful things and then say "I didn't know!" or "it came from a book" or whatever. Like if I go up to you and say, "Hey Pru, look what it says about you in this book, it says you suck." And then you get upset and I'm all, "Well don't get mad at ME, I was just reading out of this book."

Idiots.

[prunesnprisms.livejournal.com]

I get what he was saying, but it was the wrong way to say it. Meh. Silliness.

[laserkitty.livejournal.com]

Ha, I just read about this in the paper and was discussing it with Eric. Yeah - don't give a patronizing apology.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

You know, I'm not even thinking about who's "right" or who's "wrong" in this whole mess. I just think that if you're going to apologize, you apologize for something YOU did. And if you honestly feel like you have nothing to apologize for, then don't. And if you didn't mean it, heck, say that. "I didn't mean to hurt your feelings, but I'm sorry I did."

[mightywombat.livejournal.com]

I believe that, generally, people like the Pope don't get to make their own press release comments in situations like this. They have a team of peole who determine the best response for the situation and then run it past the figurehead. So, while the Pope may hvae been entirely contrite about whatever he said, his people may have put their own particular spin on it.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Now, that's a damned good point. Maybe the Pope didn't have any say in the writing of his apology. But I can't imagine someone giving a speech and not being able to override something s/he thought was inappropriate. I mean, he's the Pope! I'm sure he could veto some words.

But still, maybe it was written by Catholic PR. In which case, I change my ire to "whoever wrote that bogus apology." :)

[sudrin.livejournal.com]

But the Pope is infallible!! He can't be sorry for what HE did, because what he does is always perfect!! ;-)

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

It's true. God would never let the Pope hurt someone's feelings. ;)

[thinksnow.livejournal.com]

In his speech on Tuesday, Benedict quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and an educated Persian on the truths of Christianity and Islam.

"The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war," the pope said. "He said, I quote, 'Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.'"

"Way to blame the victim."

See, that's bullshit, though if he merely quoted a passage! Why should he be sorry that they got their nose bent out of shape? "I'm sorry that you are so incredibly thin-skinned that simply by my reading something, you feel the need to murder a nun, her bodyguard, and another hospital worker. I'm sorry that nobody can simply say words, or God/Allah/Diana-forbid, draw a cartoon(!) and your devout beliefs will leave you no other path than to declare bloody and violent retribution on anyone vaguely associated with anything kinda sorta to do with the originator."

There is a difference between apologizing for someone and genuinly feeling regret that they are offended by your actions. If you're not sorry for doing it, but are sorry that someone is hurt by it, what should you say?

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Personally, I don't think you should apologize if you don't think you have something to apologize for. Or if you DO want to apologize, you make it about you. Examples:

"I didn't mean to slight anyone, but I am sorry I chose to read that passage."

or

"I did not mean any offense and I did not anticipate this, but I am sorry my speech insulted you."

I mean, I'm not saying that the Pope needs to be all over the fact that people got upset. I mean, people get upset all the time, even when other people have the best intentions. Let's say, for example, my sister was pregnant. (I don't have a sister, but whatever.) And you heard about it and in 3 weeks you see me and you say, "You're going to be a great auntie!" And let's say my sister just had a miscarriage and I am devastated, and you feel REALLY bad. (Because you would. I know you would.) Do you think it would be better to say, "Shit, I'm sorry I said that, I didn't know," or "Shit, I'm sorry you're so upset." Which sounds more sincere?

I am not at all commenting one way or another on what the Pope said in his speech or even how people reacted to it. I have opinions on that (of course I do) and I am keeping them to myself. However, I still maintain that it was a poorly worded apology that comes off sounding insincere. And like a previous poster said, it probably was written by a PR person and probably didn't even come from the Pope at all.

But whatever. I stand by what I say. Whether the Pope or the PR dude chose to apologize in this way, it's a piss poor way to "apologize."

I'm sorry if you're mad about what I said. ;)

[thinksnow.livejournal.com]

Fair enough. FWIW, I don't think you should apologize if you don't think you have something to apologize for, either. Problem with political figures, and the Pope is, of course, is that they sometimes are forced by the nature of global politics to offer apologies wether they feel they should or not.

Your example isn't quite on the mark: if someone actually feels bad about their remarks and has regret for saying the words themselves, then yes, they would/should apologize for saying those words. It's tough to find a fitting example, though, because most often the person seeking an apology is doing so for reasons appearing irrational to the person "inflicting the harm."

I think that we are pretty much agreed on the issue, though, so I'm sorry if my going on about this distresses you. :)

[eeka13.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's interesting...

I totally agree that it's offensive and belittling for someone to make a fake apology like that for something said publicly. Yes, either apologize or don't.

I do think that approach can be appropriate in a truly sincere (and personal) interaction. If someone says something to me that's sincere and that's based on them expressing their needs and feelings, and explains that they're really sorry I'm upset about what they've said, but that they feel they really needed to be genuine and express it, I'm going to appreciate the honesty (and that the person can share genuine feelings with me). But yeah, done flippantly, it's an obnoxious approach.

I once worked at a residential treatment program with a DBT-based milieu using the Boys Town social skills model. The kids were taught skills ranging from basic (greeting others, introducing oneself) up through pretty advanced ones (disagreeing appropriately, setting appropriate boundaries, giving criticism, accepting compliments).

The steps for "disagreeing appropriately" are something like acknowledging the person's position, apologizing that there's a disconnect/disagreement, stating your piece, offering some sort of steps toward a solution. When done more-or-less by this list, it's a HUGE improvement over most of these kids' tendencies to be flat-out argumentative and disruptive. Even if there's still some pretty obvious passive-aggressive stuff or narcissistic stuff going on, the interaction does at least look like an interaction you'd find among professionals in a workplace rather than thuggy children who are about to pounce on one another.

But yeah, I'd definitely see times that kids honestly thought they were doing it "right," but were clearly being flippant with it. I remember one teacher pointing out to a girl that a certain action was disrespectful of someone else and she might want to try doing X instead. The girl responded, repeatedly, to everything the teacher said with "I'm sorry you feel that way, but [really pathetic rationalization of her behaviors]..." So yeah, her little lip-service approach seemed actually quite a bit LESS respectful than just being flat-out argumentative.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

Wow, I never replied to this comment. (Oops!)

Yes, I can see what you're saying about the sincerity aspect... and sometimes people /are/ genuinely sorry that someone is, say, feeling upset. But I still believe that if I had /any/ hand in the person's upset feelings, my apology means more if it's about my part than their feelings. Now if someone's just upset and it doesn't have anything to do with me, that's a different story entirely.

And I can totally see the "disagreeing appropriately" thing as an alternative to some people's current problem-solving skill set. You're talking about people in a residential setting and I'm talking about someone whose supposed spiritual and vocational calling is to lead an enormous religious community and act as a spiritual guide to TONS of people. So I guess what I'm saying is that I hold him to higher standards, especially when there are throes of people who are using his actions/words as a guidepost for their own.

[colorbars.livejournal.com]

The Pope and the Catholic Church are still trying to pretend that they're living in 13th or 14th century. They're woefully out of touch with the modern world.

There was a study on the breakdown of religious affiliations done about 5 years ago. It's at http://abcnews.go.com/sections/us/DailyNews/beliefnet_poll_010718.html if anyone's interested.

I'm just sayin...

[thinksnow.livejournal.com]

One could reply to this "the Catholic Church [is] still trying to pretend that they're living in 13th or 14th century" with a comment on what century the Radical Muslims are still living in.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

See, one of the things I love about the Catholic Church is the tradition of the ceremony. I agree that sometimes it needs to move forward with the times on a philosophical level, but there is something very comforting about something SO old that is SO unchanged. Even if I don't agree with it.

[volumeat11.livejournal.com]

"Well don't I feel like the fucking asshole."
-Jack Nicholson, "A Few Good Men"

So I've been out of the computer-type-loop for a solid week now, and only now do I see that Jen's taken a job out this-a-way. And you're still in Boston.

Last week, I created a bunch of mailing-type-pieces to be sent out tomorrow. One of them was to you and Jen in Dorchester. So it's addressed to the two of you. But, see, only you're there. So I'm sorry about that.

Now, because we freakin' love you two, if you'd like to use our pad as an occasional meeting place, or to crash here, or whatever, you guys are more than welcome to. We're about half-way between Boston and Amherst.

Okay. I don't feel like such an asshole anymore.

I hope all is going well (including Daveisms), and I'll talk to you soon.

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

You are SO not an asshole. Life gets busy sometimes. You're totally tops in my book all the time. :)

[vorpalbla.livejournal.com]

Indeed....
"I'm sorry that you're bleeding after I stabbed you."

[judecorp.livejournal.com]

TOTALLY.